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A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public heal

Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

jackalope said:
That IDB / TIPP is a disgrace of a poll. In no way should you take it seriously, nor put any reliance on the 'results'. Reasons why not are enumerated well in the following article, I'll only c/p the conclusion here:
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Most of his objections can be explained away by the fact that Silver is a partisan hack, but I'll humor you nonetheless.

Here's his #1 reason (and only real substantive complaint) for why the IDP/TIPP poll can't be trusted:

1. The survey was conducted by mail, which is unusual. The only other mail-based poll that I'm aware of is that conducted by the Columbus Dispatch, which was associated with an average error of about 7 percentage points -- the highest of any pollster that we tested.
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Sounds shady, right?

Here's how your poll from the OP was conducted:

The mailed survey was sent in three waves. The first wave included a cover letter, the survey, a stamped return envelope, and a $2 bill. Subsequent waves did not include an incentive. After each wave, physicians were called and asked to complete the survey and they were also offered the option of returning the survey by fax or email. Fielding of the first survey wave began on June 25th 2009 and all available data was analyzed on September 4th, 2009.
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So which is it? If mailed surveys are really that unreliable, then your poll is equally worthless. If they're actually reliable, then you must agree that Silver is simply lying to dismiss poll results that he doesn't like and that the IDB poll is as worthwhile as yours.


jackalope said:
I understood what you meant, but dispute your premise. Most practices cost-shift to private insurance. Looking at the prospect of possibly lower re-imbursements, they are not looking at massive revenue increases.

For most successful practices, likely the opposite. Most docs are already overbooked, utilizing PAs and RNs and popping in for only the 'meat' of appts. They are not sitting on excess, underutilized capacity in terms of patient appt scheduling.
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And most of those incredibly overbooked and wildly successful practices don't take Medicare anyways, so I doubt this will really affect them either way. Regardless, for those doctors who do accept Medicare, this will result in an increase in demand. That simple.
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

Taylor said:
I bet they hope it covers illegal aliens as well. That way they can actually get paid for their work.
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Yeah because then all 8 immigrants who got snuck onto medicaid would be able to pay their doctors
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

Goshin said:
Given how much I hear doctors complaining about what a pain dealing with Medicare is, I find the conclusions of this "study" highly dubious.
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Actually Goshin, many insurance plans follow the same guidelines that Medicare does. If they deal with any of the big plans they're dealing with the same rules that Medicare demands.

:2wave:
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

Ethereal said:
That's not true. I defy you to substantiate that claim.
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http://www.pnhp.org/publications/nejmadmin.pdf


In 1999, health administration costs totaled at least $294.3 billion in the United States, or $1,059 per capita, as compared with $307 per capita in Canada. After exclusions, administration accounted for 31.0 percent of health care expenditures in the United States and 16.7 percent of health care expenditures in Canada. Canada’s national health insurance program had overhead of 1.3 percent; the overhead among Canada’s private insurers was higher than that in the United States (13.2 percent vs. 11.7 percent). Providers’ administrative costs were far lower in Canada.

Between 1969 and 1999, the share of the U.S. health care labor force accounted for by administrative workers grew from 18.2 percent to 27.3 percent. In Canada, it grew from 16.0 percent in 1971 to 19.1
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Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

RightinNYC said:
Most of his objections can be explained away by the fact that Silver is a partisan hack, but I'll humor you nonetheless.
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Far from it.
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

Wow...MG, just re-read the quote you posted and you'll see what I'm talking about. Read it very carefully.
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

Ethereal said:
And how does this support your earlier statement that 30-40% of costs associated with private health insurance are administrative?

I suggest you re-read the article.
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Not sure what you mean, so please point out what I'm missing.
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

Middleground said:
Not sure what you mean, so please point out what I'm missing.
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But of course, madam...

From your previous quote:

Canada’s national health insurance program had overhead of 1.3 percent; the overhead among Canada’s private insurers was higher than that in the United States (13.2 percent vs. 11.7 percent).
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Another quote, per your source:

In 1999 U.S. private insurers retained $46.9 billion of the $401.2 billion they collected in premiums. Their average overhead (11.7 percent) exceeded that of Medicare (3.6 percent) and Medicaid (6.8 percent). Overall, public and private insurance overhead totaled $72.0 billion — 5.9 percent of the total health care expenditures in the United States, or $259 per capita (Table 1).
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Administrative costs for private health insurers are 11.7%, not 30-40%, as you had previously claimed. The 31% figure you cited was the combined administrative costs across the entire American health spectrum.
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

I'd actually comment but as always Right does an amazing job of blowing idiotic polls out of the water and showing hypocracy of those that desperately cling to such things. I've got nothing more to add besides "what he said"
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

why would they support it that is not true if this passes I will change my major this is no point in going to school for 8 years if you dont get paid well for it
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

Zyphlin said:
I'd actually comment but as always Right does an amazing job of blowing idiotic polls out of the water and showing hypocracy of those that desperately cling to such things. I've got nothing more to add besides "what he said"
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That's because he got a good education.

Lord knows what kind of dark powers he would be yielding had he attended Berkley...:moody
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

Zyphlin said:
I'd actually comment but as always Right does an amazing job of blowing idiotic polls out of the water and showing hypocracy of those that desperately cling to such things. I've got nothing more to add besides "what he said"
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He actually did a terrible job. He made a (false) ad hominem attack, then focused on point 1 - which Nate Silver said was unusual, but not the reason not to trust the poll - and ignored the very real continuing points, including the failure to disclose methodology, which would help in evaluating whether pt 1 was important.

As usual, the right dismisses based on politics of personal destruction (he's a partisan hack!) and not on substance.
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

Coolguy said:
More disagreement.
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Half of doctors will quit if Congress passes this bill? Obviously contrived statistics are obvious.

I really don't think so. They kind of need their jobs for, you know, money, and even if this plan was the worst thing ever, they would still be getting money from somewhere.
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

jackalope said:
This doesn't surprise me at all. So, the majority of the public wants a public option, the majority of doctors want a public option, but the right and the insurance industry doesn't?

Why are we listening to them again?
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I'll match you with a pic....

ObamaCareDoctors.png


And an unbiased survey (come on, if it's from Huffpo...).... of real Doctors!!!!

Two of every three practicing physicians oppose the medical overhaul plan under consideration in Washington, and hundreds of thousands would think about shutting down their practices or retiring early if it were adopted, a new IBD/TIPP Poll has found.

The poll contradicts the claims of not only the White House, but also doctors' own lobby — the powerful American Medical Association — both of which suggest the medical profession is behind the proposed overhaul.

It also calls into question whether an overhaul is even doable; 72% of the doctors polled disagree with the administration's claim that the government can cover 47 million more people with better-quality care at lower cost.

The IBD/TIPP Poll was conducted by mail the past two weeks, with 1,376 practicing physicians chosen randomly throughout the country taking part. Responses are still coming in, and doctors' positions on related topics — including the impact of an overhaul on senior care, medical school applications and drug development — will be covered later in this series.
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Investors.com - 45% Of Doctors Would Consider Quitting If Congress Passes Health Care Overhaul
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

I already said, that is not logistically possible, the Investor must be biased. 45% of any industry, but especially those in a lucrative industry like health care, are not going to quit their jobs no matter what. Doctors still have bills to pay and probably don't have any specialized training other than the medical profession which would enable them to lead the kind of lives they and their families are accustomed to.
 
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Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

Coolguy said:
More disagreement.
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**$@!! @$%^&*) (&%%^%%#*(!!! :doh
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

Originally Posted by RightinNYC
Most of his objections can be explained away by the fact that Silver is a partisan hack, but I'll humor you nonetheless.
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jackalope said:
Far from it.
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Sure won that debate, good going. ;)
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

Morality Games said:
I already said, that is not logistically possible, the Investor must be biased. 45% of any industry, but especially those in a lucrative industry like health care, are not going to quit their jobs no matter what. Doctors still have bills to pay and probably don't have any specialized training other than the medical profession which would enable them to lead the kind of lives they and their families are accustomed to.
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Reread the poll question.

45% will consider leaving the medical profession or retiring early.

Setting aside the fact that this obviously includes a large percentage who would not consider retiring now, but might consider it later, what percent of practicing physicians do you think could retire from full-time practice tomorrow and live off their savings? I'd say it's probably pretty significant.
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

You guys seem to've missed an obvious point. If more people have health insurance, that's more money in the pockets of doctors. Even if they are in favor of the public option, it's meaningless.
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

"This doesn't surprise me at all. So, the majority of the public wants a public option, the majority of doctors want a public option, but the right and the insurance industry doesn't?

Why are we listening to them again?"


Argument from Popularity
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

Middleground said:
Yeah, because dealing with insurance companies is such a piece of cake. :doh

Do you know that 30-40% of your current insured healthcare cost is administrative???
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Of course more government will do wonders with this
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

Crunch said:
Sure won that debate, good going. ;)
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There was no debate, nothing to hang a fact on. So I moved forward.
 
Re: A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public

DrunkenAsparagus said:
"This doesn't surprise me at all. So, the majority of the public wants a public option, the majority of doctors want a public option, but the right and the insurance industry doesn't?

Why are we listening to them again?"


Argument from Popularity
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Hmmmmm, much better argument than fear and greed.
 
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