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Thread: Already, 23 Dems have said they will vote ‘no’ on healthcare reform

  1. #91
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Already, 23 Dems have said they will vote ‘no’ on healthcare reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    It does if the system is to be maintained; any thing which moves outside the parameter is a catalyst for discontent.
    And then, the business fails.
    So what? Failure = illegitimacy?

    ...wouldn't any definition ever used by anybody be self-serving if humans are self-serving?
    Um... no.
    There are -actual- definitions, and then there are definitions people create because they fit in with the point they are tying to prove.
    Yours is the latter, as I have demonstrated.

    And the authority for your definiton is . . . which capitalist theorist...? I've staked out Adam Smith.
    Fallacy: Appeal to authority.
    If you disagree with my definition or capitalism, tell me how I am wring -- just as I have done for you.

    That's not supply on demand; there is no shortage of supply to accomodate the spike in demand, which would justify raising the fee.
    You can say that all you want, but the market, having bought the expensive HDMI cables, apparently disagreed. The market, the ultimate determiner of a fair price, found the price 'reasonable', negating your arguments to that effect.

    There is shadow puppetry inflating the price of what is demanded by feigning, or in a word, price gouging.
    People pay what they feel someting is worth; if they feel the price is too high, they dont pay it. You can set your price at whatever level you want, but that, in and of it self, means nothing, and so, so long as you are actually selling your goods/services, you are selling at what the market will bear.

    If you are selling at what the market will bear, you are, by definition, not gouging.

    There is no accountability.
    I see that by this addition to your original definition, you agree the original definiton was weak.

    But anyway - and I'll ask these questions again, but in a diffeent way - how are health insurance companies are 'unaccountable'?
    To whom -should- they be accountable?
    How are they not?

    They are investors who receive money not from professional financiers but from customers who are after an essential service. Because the service is essential, that is, it is necessary to lead a prosperous life in the modern age,
    False premise.
    Health care is a luxury, not a necessity.
    Health care might be an effective means to maintain certain aspects of a certain standard of living, but the 'need' for that standard of living is, at best, subjective, and at worst, narcissistic.

    No matter how much they fail, they can compensate for the failure by raising premiums;
    Incorrect, as they can only raise premiums to the point that the market will bear.

    people can't withdraw from the contract without putting their health and that of their family in perpetual, mortal danger.
    Aside form this being untrue, you are making my point in that association with an insurer - any insurer - IS voluntary and as such, people always have a choice.

    In the worst case scenarios, including situations where they themselves cause the downturn, insurance companies can look forward to government bail-outs; because representatives of various constituencies know it is in their interest not to allow their constituents to lose their health care providers.
    Just curious: What -health- insureance companies have been bailed out?
    Asinde from that, you can complain about bailouts if you want, but, given the gaping holes in the rest of your argument, it does nothing to gain you any degree of seaworthiness.

    In contrast, a related industry, investment firms, is always held accountable; if their investments fail, their financiers will find some other business and they will go under. If they are shady and pull fast ones on their recipients, then the government will retalitate with much more strength, because it makes them appear just and because the business targeted does not provide an essential service to their constituents.
    Exactly the same thing can be said for the health insurance companies:
    -If their investments fail, their investors look elsewhere
    -If theiy fail their customers, they look elsewere
    -If they 'pull fast ones' the government gets involved.

    Your 'accountability' argument is thus negated.

    Health insurance companies do not incur such penalties; therefore, they are not comparable.
    Forgetting for the moment that my response, above, negates this, you'll need to address the questions I've put to you twice now before you have any chance of making that stick.

    Strawman. That's a reduced interpretation of my argument.
    And it is entirely accurate. No straw here.
    Speaking of strawmen, its odd you bring up the term (see below)...

    All definitions are self-serving though.
    As noted before:
    There are -actual- definitions, and then there are definitions people create because they fit in with the point they are tying to prove.
    Yours is the latter, as I have demonstrated.

  2. #92
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    Arrow Re: Already, 23 Dems have said they will vote ‘no’ on healthcare reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    People pay what they feel someting is worth; if they feel the price is too high, they dont pay it. You can set your price at whatever level you want, but that, in and of it self, means nothing, and so, so long as you are actually selling your goods/services, you are selling at what the market will bear.

    If you are selling at what the market will bear, you are, by definition, not gouging.
    Most people don't understand that this simple logical exercise proves there is no such thing as price gouging.

  3. #93
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    Re: Already, 23 Dems have said they will vote ‘no’ on healthcare reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    That is exactly what you are implying with your nonsensical answer to my comments.



    What makes you PRESUME I wasn't up in arms about the Financial Bailout? Again, it begs the question, WTF does Bush have to do with Democrats spending us into a $1.8 trillion deficit with $12 trillion in debt?



    How about you cut out the nonsensical "partisan" rhetoric and deal with the facts? Please explain to me what is NOT “partisan” about politics; I will laughingly wait for your response.

    Now back to the FACTS: Democrats are in charge and are the ones spending us into a massive hole. What parts of this do you continue to NOT get and, once again, what part of this has ANYTHING to do with Bush, who is no longer President by the way, or Republicans, who are no longer in charge by the way?

    I guess I'll never learn. I'm not sure why I even attempt to engage in any sort of discussion with you. Silly me.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

  4. #94
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    Re: Already, 23 Dems have said they will vote ‘no’ on healthcare reform

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    I guess I'll never learn. I'm not sure why I even attempt to engage in any sort of discussion with you. Silly me.
    I guess I still have to learn that you are not here to engage in honest debate but rather to troll with your typical nonsense.


  5. #95
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    Re: Already, 23 Dems have said they will vote ‘no’ on healthcare reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I guess I still have to learn that you are not here to engage in honest debate but rather to troll with your typical nonsense.

    No. I came in and made a point that was very easily understood. You then went into your usual partisan babble and completely missed the point(hardly surprising). The irony here is that you think I'm the troll.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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