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Thread: Communisum in our Schools.

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    Re: Communisum in our Schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by The silenced majority View Post
    Since there is no such thing as a self-creating watch, treating the privately owned watch-factory as a way of placing the means of production off-limits is folly.
    There aren't, but there are many such things as currently existing watches that personal possession of wouldn't cause harm to others. Private ownership of a major productive resource, however, forms the basis for labor market coercion that I described.

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    Re: Communisum in our Schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
    Rationalism just doesn't work on some people...

    Does this forum have an ignore feature?
    You've your own "ignore" button.

    You have my permission to use it, anytime you wish.

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    Re: Communisum in our Schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    There aren't, but there are many such things as currently existing watches that personal possession of wouldn't cause harm to others. Private ownership of a major productive resource, however, forms the basis for labor market coercion that I described.
    So does every member of the collective make their own watch, or does every member of the collective simultaneously turn every single screw in the watch factory in the watch-making process in order to provide a watch for every member of the collective?

    You'd need a really big screw-driver.

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    Re: Communisum in our Schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    I've no use for that. I've simply even less use for your inaccurate references to political economic terminology that have no relation to the confiscatory practice that you describe.



    Was that supposed to be a sound reply? I've made the distinctions between private and possessive property rather clear in the past; private property involves a monopoly of control over a productive resource that permits the "owner" to compel others to perform labor in a hierarchical arrangement under him in order to gain access to that resource, whereas possessive property merely involves personal ownership of items that cannot be used for this purpose. A watch is an example of possessive property; a watch factory is an example of private property. The elimination of private property brings with it the elimination of a major source of labor market coercion, and is thus far less authoritarian than the institution of private property itself.


    I haven't referred to forced collectivism; I've referred to collectivism which involves a reduction of force and coercion through the elimination of private property in the manner that was elaborated upon above. Study up.
    Got an example of where this worked?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Communisum in our Schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    That's completely wrong. Considering the etymological meaning of "anarchy" as "without rulers," the mere elimination of government through the centralized and formal state is not sufficient to establish conditions of anarchy; the elimination of other unjust hierarchies is necessary too, which accounts for the traditional anarchist opposition to the "Unholy Trinity" of church, state, and capitalism. I take it authoritarian hierarchies were not absent in the pioneer West...
    That's inane. The very classification of "unjust hierarchy" is as subjective as anything else. "Just" based on what? Your preferences? That's an exercise of authority in and of itself.

    The idea that any "collective" can strip you of your private property and prevent you from accumulating more is a hierarchy, too, but for you, it gets a pass because you don't consider it "unjust." But others disagree.

    Like the poor folks your revered Catalonians executed for being too bourgeois.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Communisum in our Schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by The silenced majority View Post
    So does every member of the collective make their own watch, or does every member of the collective simultaneously turn every single screw in the watch factory in the watch-making process in order to provide a watch for every member of the collective?

    You'd need a really big screw-driver.
    The Liberals out here, I'm sure have a big screw-driver. It's the "Collective" part in which direction to turn it,,,they have a problem.

    Maybe, a Group Hug will help them.

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    Re: Communisum in our Schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by The silenced majority View Post
    So does every member of the collective make their own watch, or does every member of the collective simultaneously turn every single screw in the watch factory in the watch-making process in order to provide a watch for every member of the collective?
    The collectivization of the means of production is intended to facilitate the installment of workers' ownership and management of the labor market and internal firm structure for the purpose of managing productive enterprise...what are you even saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Got an example of where this worked?
    Yeah, I've referred to the Spanish Revolution countless times: [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution]Spanish Revolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    That's inane. The very classification of "unjust hierarchy" is as subjective as anything else. "Just" based on what? Your preferences? That's an exercise of authority in and of itself.

    The idea that any "collective" can strip you of your private property and prevent you from accumulating more is a hierarchy, too, but for you, it gets a pass because you don't consider it "unjust." But others disagree.
    That's why I never claimed that the elimination of all hierarchical influence in all places at all times was a conceivable possibility; I instead referred to their minimization. Just as the police officer's arrest of the violent criminal is forcible but intended to ultimately reduce violence, those forcible expropriations of private property that will have to occur at times are designed to reduce coercion as a whole by eliminating authoritarian control of productive resources and instituting direct democratic control. Or is the overthrow of a monarch for a democracy "authoritarian"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Like the poor folks your revered Catalonians executed for being too bourgeois.
    So you've either been reading Bryan Caplan or you've been reading the Wikipedia article that I wrote? Which is it? Unless you'd like to present some other valid evidence of systematic and widespread execution of innocent middle class civilians by anarchists?

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    Re: Communisum in our Schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    That's why I never claimed that the elimination of all hierarchical influence in all places at all times was a conceivable possibility; I instead referred to their minimization. Just as the police officer's arrest of the violent criminal is forcible but intended to ultimately reduce violence, those forcible expropriations of private property that will have to occur at times are designed to reduce coercion as a whole by eliminating authoritarian control of productive resources and instituting direct democratic control. Or is the overthrow of a monarch for a democracy "authoritarian"?
    When you acknowledge that there are acceptable hierarchies, it comes down to which ones you find acceptable. Reasonable minds may and do differ, and reasonable minds don't agree with you.



    So you've either been reading Bryan Caplan or you've been reading the Wikipedia article that I wrote? Which is it? Unless you'd like to present some other valid evidence of systematic and widespread execution of innocent middle class civilians by anarchists?
    Did they execute any or didn't they? Didn't say anything about "widespread."

    I'd say taking someone's life is the ultimate act of authority and rulership.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Communisum in our Schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    When you acknowledge that there are acceptable hierarchies, it comes down to which ones you find acceptable. Reasonable minds may and do differ, and reasonable minds don't agree with you.
    Always our main focus is the ultimate reduction of authoritarianism as manifested through hierarchies. If some "authoritarianism" is necessary, it is that which is a means to a reduction of authoritarianism of a more severe nature, as with the "force" of violent insurrection against an unjust monarch, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Did they execute any or didn't they?
    Yes. Reference to isolated incidents that involved workers and their families taking revenge upon the very bosses that had oppressed and maltreated them for years is not evidence of any general trend of unjust violence associated with anarchist organizational principles, nor is it even sufficient to render the Spanish Revolution non-libertarian in nature, however.

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    Re: Communisum in our Schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Realist1 View Post
    What kind of twisted thinking are Teachers trying with our kids? "Teaching" them it's "OK" to Steal?


    Communism In Our Schools | NewsBusters.org


    Tonight I had chance to listen to Bruce DuMont's radio show and heard the story of how teachers in one school confiscate all the children's school supplies (and in this case even lunch boxes), put them in a pile, and everyone takes turns coming up and taking what they want, whether the parents like it or not. A guest on the show, Erika Brees, Heartland Regional Director for College Democrats of America, defended this action saying that "it's an important lesson that people learn to do with less so others can have what they need too, and if the parents aren't willing to teach that, I think it's good that the school does." [I paraphrase]

    This is nothing more than an introduction to communism. I was shocked. I thought there's no way that this redistribution of personal property really goes on in American school rooms. After a few searches and several calls to teacher friends, I've found this to be more common than I ever would have thought, and of course there is not one media story on the subject to be found.

    It's one thing to buy extra supplies so the classroom has the tools it needs to conduct class. It's quite another to steal property from one person... and give it to another.
    I'm going to tell you why this story is bull**** (other than it being hearsay): food allergies. Everywhere you take your kid these days they want to know about food allergies and whatnot. If a district caught a teacher doing this, he'd be out on his ass for him exposing the district to a lawsuit or seven.

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