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Thread: How to Kill a Union,,,in 3 Easy Steps.

  1. #31
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    Re: How to Kill a Union,,,in 3 Easy Steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Realist1 View Post
    Tell me,,,why would anyone worthwhile join a Union? You end up PAYING someone else for your Right to Work...
    huh? you're very confused about how unions work.

    Most professions have organizations that represent them, so that little $65 buck a month pays for a lot of good union activity, mostly representation and helping the business owners gain more contract work.

    As a union sheet metal worker, I make twice what most untrained workers make. But I am certaibly free to quit and go work for a non-union business or even start my own.

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    Re: How to Kill a Union,,,in 3 Easy Steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don't Tase Me Bro View Post
    Henry Ford didn't need a union to do that.

    Secondly, what I said is hardly a lie and easily understood by anyone with knowledge in economics. The unions were strongest in the 1950s and that was because America had virtually no foreign competition in most industries. We were about the only industrialized nation that didn't have the crap blown out of it during WWII so while Europe was piecing itself back to together we had a virtual global monopoly on exports. That is why we could pay workers so well in those days for manual labor and have 80% income rates and still be chugging right along as a nation. Our recession began in the 1960s right as the Europeans were coming back online and producing again. From then it was all down hill for American manufacturing: textiles, automobiles, steel makers, you name it. The final blow was NAFTA and as much as technology has improved our lives, it's also a cause for the decimation of unions. Today China and India can produce products for a fraction of what it would cost here in this country and that's why so much of that has left our shores. Unionizing further would only speed the process.

    The numbers don't lie. Ideology, however, blinds.
    So what is your solution for getting wages up? They have been stagnating for a decade and please don't say tax cuts, that has been tried. How can we rebuild an economy when American workers make the same amount year after year and energy, food and medical costs continue to rise? A union used to be the ticket to the middle class for a working man, is that carrot to be thrown away just to satisfy the stockholders?

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    Re: How to Kill a Union,,,in 3 Easy Steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by angrycarpenter View Post
    So what is your solution for getting wages up? They have been stagnating for a decade and please don't say tax cuts, that has been tried. How can we rebuild an economy when American workers make the same amount year after year and energy, food and medical costs continue to rise? A union used to be the ticket to the middle class for a working man, is that carrot to be thrown away just to satisfy the stockholders?
    In a global market with much cheaper labor, the more you take wages up, the more jobs will go elsewhere.

    How do you solve that?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  4. #34
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    Re: How to Kill a Union,,,in 3 Easy Steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    In a global market with much cheaper labor, the more you take wages up, the more jobs will go elsewhere.

    How do you solve that?
    Unionize everyone.

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    Re: How to Kill a Union,,,in 3 Easy Steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimboJ View Post
    I don't think this is exactly correct. I think that you are saying a monopolies are bad because they can act as price setters against a group of agents who are price takers. This causes the price setter to cut back production to an inefficient degree so that it can artificially raise prices. In this setting the price-takers have no bargaining power because they compete with each other. Correct me if I am mischaracterizing your position.
    This, I more or less agree with.

    However, if this is the case then labor unions are not properly defined as price setters, because business has bargaining power. Businesses are not simply price takers because they can refuse a contract, force a strike and even bring in temporary workers.
    Then they have no labor, and scabs are only temporary.

    Remember, though, that a monopoly, in practice, need not control 100% of the market.


    Unions are ultimately bargaining over the division of profit in a company. Thus, they are bargaining with a single agent who has a strict reservation value of what they can concede. This is different than bargaining with numerous agents who all have different reservation values. Since unions are only dealing with one agent, they do not have the same incentives to make supply scarce in order to increase they price. They simply name the price that they want.
    That certainly depends on the situation. Unions have been, on many occasions, in a position to make ridiculous demands and force industries to take them. The UAW is a pretty good example.

    The monopolistic power of unions is recognized in Section 8(b) of the National Labor Relations Act, which lists unfair practices on the part of unions.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: How to Kill a Union,,,in 3 Easy Steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    In a global market with much cheaper labor, the more you take wages up, the more jobs will go elsewhere.

    How do you solve that?
    You do it the old fashioned way, with import tariffs. Every country in the world practices protectionism why is it bad for us? The fact that we are not all over the slave produced crap from China just shows how much power they have over our economy. Protectionism is only bad for multinationals who want to take profits by moving stuff around the world without having to pay a fee. Access to American markets should come at a price, as it is now we are just giving it away for free.

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    Re: How to Kill a Union,,,in 3 Easy Steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe1991 View Post
    Unionize everyone.


    How you gonna do that, champ? Planning to invade China or India any time soon to impose it?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: How to Kill a Union,,,in 3 Easy Steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by angrycarpenter View Post
    You do it the old fashioned way, with import tariffs. Every country in the world practices protectionism why is it bad for us? The fact that we are not all over the slave produced crap from China just shows how much power they have over our economy. Protectionism is only bad for multinationals who want to take profits by moving stuff around the world without having to pay a fee. Access to American markets should come at a price, as it is now we are just giving it away for free.
    Then the rest of the world buys the cheaper stuff from elsewhere and the jobs disappear anyway.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: How to Kill a Union,,,in 3 Easy Steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don't Tase Me Bro View Post
    Henry Ford didn't need a union to do that.

    Secondly, what I said is hardly a lie and easily understood by anyone with knowledge in economics. The unions were strongest in the 1950s and that was because America had virtually no foreign competition in most industries. We were about the only industrialized nation that didn't have the crap blown out of it during WWII so while Europe was piecing itself back to together we had a virtual global monopoly on exports. That is why we could pay workers so well in those days for manual labor and have 80% income rates and still be chugging right along as a nation. Our recession began in the 1960s right as the Europeans were coming back online and producing again. From then it was all down hill for American manufacturing: textiles, automobiles, steel makers, you name it. The final blow was NAFTA and as much as technology has improved our lives, it's also a cause for the decimation of unions. Today China and India can produce products for a fraction of what it would cost here in this country and that's why so much of that has left our shores. Unionizing further would only speed the process.

    The numbers don't lie. Ideology, however, blinds.
    Well this reasoning depends on the industry. The service industry cannot be outsourced. This is becoming a larger share of our economy. Therefore, trade is not much of a threat to unions there. Moreover, unions and a welfare state more generally can create stable employment that encourages individuals to invest in relatively high skills that are particular and necessary for their industry. If interested you can find a more nuanced argument for this latter point is found in "Varieties of Capitalism: The Institutional Foundations of Comparative Advantage"
    Last edited by JimboJ; 08-15-09 at 07:43 PM.

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    Re: How to Kill a Union,,,in 3 Easy Steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Then the rest of the world buys the cheaper stuff from elsewhere and the jobs disappear anyway.
    So we are just screwed because our workers insist on a higher standard of living than Malaysia? is that your answer? Do we just expect too much being a worker in the richest country in the world?

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