Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 88

Thread: Palin Endorsed End Of Life Counseling As Governor

  1. #21
    Educator sam_w's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Seen
    09-24-09 @ 04:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    724

    Re: Palin Endorsed End Of Life Counseling As Governor

    Zeke Emanuel on Sarah Palin’s Accusation of 'Death Panels': 'It’s An Absolute Outrage'

    An opponent of euthanasia, Emanuel says he “abhor”s people “cavalierly distorting those writings and the work that I’ve done over 25 years to help improve medical care in America for vulnerable people who often have no voice.”

    In fact, as an academic he looked into the notion of euthanasia when the “Right to Die” movement started gaining attention and he says he’s been “very solidly consistently against it.” The misperception was prevalent, he says, that those seeking assisted suicide did so because they were “writhing in pain,” when in fact the main motivation for those seeking voluntary euthanasia was depression.

    One of the passages written by Emanuel and used as evidence by Palin and others that he would favor withholding medical care from those who aren’t productive members of society include a 1996 contribution to the Hastings Center Report, in which he said that under the “civic republican or deliberative democratic” construct, “services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia. A less obvious example is guaranteeing neuropsychological services to ensure children with learning disabilities can read and learn to reason."

    Is he saying, as Palin and others have suggested, that those who aren’t “participating citizens” should have no guarantee to health care?

    “No,” Emanuel says, “and I think I made it pretty clear I wasn’t endorsing that view, I was analyzing that perspective and what it might mean in practical terms. The rest of the text around that quote made it made it pretty clear I was trying to analyze it and understand it, not endorse it.”
    Emanuel acknowledges that philosophical treatises can be difficult to consume and might lend themselves to this kind of misinterpretation. People in the world of academia “tend to know your whole body of work, and when they make a response it tends to be to one line of argument in context.” But that said, “a lot of philosophy can sometimes seem extremely abstract to people and hard to follow -- even well-educated people.” He says sometimes he has trouble following a philosophical article. “They’re not necessarily the easiest thing to read.”
    Expecting someone like Caribou Barbie to understand philosophical treatises? Hell a menu at Denny's restaurants is probably more than she can handle.

  2. #22
    Tavern Bartender
    Constitutionalist
    American's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:49 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    76,323

    Re: Palin Endorsed End Of Life Counseling As Governor

    Quote Originally Posted by sam_w View Post
    Zeke Emanuel on Sarah Palin’s Accusation of 'Death Panels': 'It’s An Absolute Outrage'





    Expecting someone like Caribou Barbie to understand philosophical treatises? Hell a menu at Denny's restaurants is probably more than she can handle.
    And you're only Slightly Liberal?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  3. #23
    Pragmatist
    SouthernDemocrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    KC
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    17,415

    Re: Palin Endorsed End Of Life Counseling As Governor

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    But, what about this little part, here?



    Exactly, what legal barriers have to be addressed concerning life sustaining treatment?

    As far as I know, there's not a single law that prevents doctors from saving life. Do you know of one? Of course you don't and therein lies the reason for the language in that part of the bill.

    You lose. Ok...next?!?
    Directly after the line you quoted:

    and
    ‘(II) that has in effect a program for orders for life sustaining treatment described in clause (iii).
    ‘(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining treatment for a States described in this clause is a program that--
    ‘(I) ensures such orders are standardized and uniquely identifiable throughout the State;
    ‘(II) distributes or makes accessible such orders to physicians and other health professionals that (acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law) may sign orders for life sustaining treatment;
    ‘(III) provides training for health care professionals across the continuum of care about the goals and use of orders for life sustaining treatment; and
    ‘(IV) is guided by a coalition of stakeholders includes representatives from emergency medical services, emergency department physicians or nurses, state long-term care association, state medical association, state surveyors, agency responsible for senior services, state department of health, state hospital association, home health association, state bar association, and state hospice association.


    The legal barriers that have to be addressed according to the section on this issue are state laws regarding end of life decisions and living wills.

    For example, in some states you can expressly state in a living will that you do not want anything beyond a respirator in the event you are in a coma with no hope of recovery. In other states, the laws differ. Thats all it means. It basically is saying that this section will be restricted by the laws of the state the practitioner practices in.

    Perhaps if they had a paraphrased version of the bill with cartoon characters acting out the various sections of it Palin would have been able to comprehend it better.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 08-13-09 at 10:06 PM.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  4. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Tiamat's better half
    Last Seen
    10-28-11 @ 01:41 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    15,998

    Re: Palin Endorsed End Of Life Counseling As Governor

    The problem is the bill is like 1000 pages long and hardly anyone is going to read it. Instead they're listening to radio and getting all hysterical. It doesn't help matters much though that there are sound bites of Obama talking about his grandmom and how much chronically ill and terminally ill people cost and how there are moral questions as to whether we should pay for things like his grandmom's hip replacement. Freaking the 'ol timers out.

  5. #25
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:25 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,496

    Re: Palin Endorsed End Of Life Counseling As Governor

    Quote Originally Posted by sam_w View Post
    Zeke Emanuel on Sarah Palin’s Accusation of 'Death Panels': 'It’s An Absolute Outrage'





    Expecting someone like Caribou Barbie to understand philosophical treatises? Hell a menu at Denny's restaurants is probably more than she can handle.
    Zeke's outraged? What a farkin idiot he is! Shall we post his writings?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  6. #26
    Pragmatist
    SouthernDemocrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    KC
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    17,415

    Re: Palin Endorsed End Of Life Counseling As Governor

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    The problem is the bill is like 1000 pages long and hardly anyone is going to read it. Instead they're listening to radio and getting all hysterical. It doesn't help matters much though that there are sound bites of Obama talking about his grandmom and how much chronically ill and terminally ill people cost and how there are moral questions as to whether we should pay for things like his grandmom's hip replacement. Freaking the 'ol timers out.
    Seriously though, should a bill that reforms insurance, medicare, and much of the existing health system be only a couple of pages long?

    I am not saying its a great bill, I don't think it is, but it would not matter what was in it, the loons out there are going to get hysterical. Its what they do, if they are breathing, they are buying into ridiculous conspiracy theories.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  7. #27
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Tiamat's better half
    Last Seen
    10-28-11 @ 01:41 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    15,998

    Re: Palin Endorsed End Of Life Counseling As Governor

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Seriously though, should a bill that reforms insurance, medicare, and much of the existing health system be only a couple of pages long?

    I am not saying its a great bill, I don't think it is, but it would not matter what was in it, the loons out there are going to get hysterical. Its what they do, if they are breathing, they are buying into ridiculous conspiracy theories.
    All I know is I couldn't get through it.

    As far as the hysteria goes it's pretty inevitable, isn't it? If the health care industry was changed that drastically it would be a huge deal. And once things like that change, they tend to stay changed. People aren't sure what to expect. They're panicking and the 24 hour cable news networks are eating it up. Plus the pundits have gotten so damn nasty lately. Sure MSNBC has leaned to the left for a long time while Fox leans to the right. But now they are so obvious about it. You can't watch more than 10 minutes without zingers and insults flying. Jeezus.

  8. #28
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Naperville, IL
    Last Seen
    09-24-12 @ 02:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    11,963

    Re: Palin Endorsed End Of Life Counseling As Governor

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I got a C-note for the first person who posts language from the actual bill that proves Palin wrong. You must provide section, paragraph, line and page numbers.

    Anyone got the balls for that one?
    You don't get how it works. You and the ex-governor of Alaska have made a claim that the bill says something that is doesn't.

    Prove it. Show us where. Explain your interpretation of the current text of the bill -- tell us how the 'death panels' will work according to the bill.

    But understand this: The rest of us are not obliged or interested in showing you where something is not. I have no idea where the health care bill doesn't mention death panels. Get it? We can't think crazy just to read and see the bill the way you do.

    Good luck with the death panels.

    Meanwhile, I'll post this updated fact check of Palin's continued misinterpreting of the health care bill.

    Palin claims Obama misled when he said end-of-life counseling is voluntary

    In her Facebook response the following day, Palin accused Obama of fudging the truth.

    "With all due respect, it’s misleading for the President to describe this section as an entirely voluntary provision that simply increases the information offered to Medicare recipients. The issue is the context in which that information is provided and the coercive effect these consultations will have in that context."

    Palin then accurately cited some of the language Section 1233 of the House version of the health care plan, which is titled "Advanced Care Planning Consultation."

    As Palin says, the provision "authorizes advanced care planning consultations for senior citizens on Medicare every five years, and more often 'if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual ... or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility... or a hospice program.' During those consultations, practitioners must explain 'the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice,' and the government benefits available to pay for such services."

    Palin then argues that this provision must be viewed in the context of a health care bill whose stated purpose is "to reduce the growth in health care spending."

    "Is it any wonder," Palin writes, "that senior citizens might view such consultations as attempts to convince them to help reduce health care costs by accepting minimal end-of-life care?"

    That's an opinion. What we're trying to get at here is Palin's claim that the end-of-life counseling is not "entirely voluntary."

    When we wrote about McCaughey's claim that the end-of-life counseling was mandatory, we cited several health care experts who said McCaughey was simply misreading the provision, that the bill would make the counseling available, but voluntary.

    In no way would these sessions be designed to encourage patients to end their lives, said Jim Dau, national spokesman for AARP, a group that represents people over 50 and has lobbied in support of the advanced planning provision.

  9. #29
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:25 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,496

    Re: Palin Endorsed End Of Life Counseling As Governor

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Seriously though, should a bill that reforms insurance, medicare, and much of the existing health system be only a couple of pages long?
    It shouldn't be so complex that even the people that support it don't know what the hell it says and make themselves look like simpletons in it's defense.

    I am not saying its a great bill,...
    Well, then don't you think the American people deserve a great bill? The health care system in this country isn't so ****ed up that we need to **** it up even more.
    Last edited by apdst; 08-13-09 at 10:44 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #30
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:25 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,496

    Re: Palin Endorsed End Of Life Counseling As Governor

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    You don't get how it works. You and the ex-governor of Alaska have made a claim that the bill says something that is doesn't.

    Prove it. Show us where. Explain your interpretation of the current text of the bill -- tell us how the 'death panels' will work according to the bill.

    But understand this: The rest of us are not obliged or interested in showing you where something is not. I have no idea where the health care bill doesn't mention death panels. Get it? We can't think crazy just to read and see the bill the way you do.

    Good luck with the death panels.

    Meanwhile, I'll post this updated fact check of Palin's continued misinterpreting of the health care bill.

    Palin claims Obama misled when he said end-of-life counseling is voluntary
    Please sir, use actual language from the bill to prove me wrong. Thanks in advance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •