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Thread: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

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    Talking re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Saw the interview on MSNBC and this woman was revealed as someone of below average intelligence and education taken in by Right-Wing hyperbole and talking points.

    She really had no clue what she was talking about. She didn't really understand how medicare works or other publicly funded safety nets.

    Watching it again -- this woman has no clue how Government works and how good she has it. She doesn't even know how much her family makes.

    She is the winner of the STFU award this week.
    Hey Hazlnut,
    You both have a right to your opinion and you don't have to agree. There is NO REASON to get nasty.
    I was at that town hall meeting and it was on the most part civil. I also watch this lady getting ambush by the media.
    Her point is this nation was founded on principles that are being violated by our government. Her call is a call for GOVERNMENT REFORM. She is making a call to return to our founding principles and the US Constitution.
    Her point is valid. Any law that cannot be placed within the Constitution is without merit. Our government has NO AUTHORITY to pass this sweeping legislation.
    Where Article 1 section 8 has “…and general Welfare of the United States;” does not include health care. The reason is that the proposed bill if made law VIOLATES states’ rights and individuals’ rights to make it happen.
    Social Security, Medicare, Welfare and Medicaid WILL FAIL. They are unsustainable. They are not successful they should be on the chopping block of history.
    Socialism breads tyranny. That is what happened in the USSR and in NAZI Germany. The progressive movement gave birth to both and is trying to separate from its children.
    You cannot logically deny the facts. Maybe you could call me some names and give me the STFU award. If given the chance I would like to ask one of my Senators about this RAPING of our founding principles and how they intend to return us to them.
    None have the courage.

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    re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunor View Post
    Hey Hazlnut,
    You both have a right to your opinion and you don't have to agree. There is NO REASON to get nasty.
    I was at that town hall meeting and it was on the most part civil. I also watch this lady getting ambush by the media.
    It's not about getting nasty -- but when someone says something like her 'dismantling of the country' statement -- I want to know what she means. The same questions asked by MSNBC (and only them so far) came to mind. WTF are you talking about, lady?

    The MSNBC interviewer really took pity on her when he saw that she had no real understanding of the what the health care reform bill was attempting to do and could only repeat back a string of right-wing talking points. She was not a very well-informed person and if he had hammered on her any more, then he would have come off as a bully.

    I am not a fan or regular watcher of MSNBC, but CNN and FOX have both been giving air time to these average people with opinions on the health care bill. The majority of these opinions are based on gross misinformation. How does that help the debate? How does get other people better informed about the bill's pros and cons?

    Real experts on health care policy and economics are given a measly half-hour segment on Sunday morning or on C-Span. They have raised legitimate issues with the bill and are able to intelligently discuss and communicate the complicated formulas and policies. I watch these shows. Mrs. Abrams doesn't know they exist.

    Her point is this nation was founded on principles that are being violated by our government.
    How so? She was completely unable to articulate her position with any real examples. She revealed herself as someone who really doesn't understand many basic concepts of public policy and government in our country.


    Her call is a call for GOVERNMENT REFORM. She is making a call to return to our founding principles and the US Constitution.
    Her point is valid. Any law that cannot be placed within the Constitution is without merit. Our government has NO AUTHORITY to pass this sweeping legislation.
    Where Article 1 section 8 has “…and general Welfare of the United States;” does not include health care. The reason is that the proposed bill if made law VIOLATES states’ rights and individuals’ rights to make it happen.
    Social Security, Medicare, Welfare and Medicaid WILL FAIL. They are unsustainable. They are not successful they should be on the chopping block of history.
    At least you are able to answer the questions she was not. So, you are for the elimination of the 'safety net' programs? I agree, they are expensive and there are sometimes abuses in these programs.

    But without them, we're talking about massive amounts of people, especially the elderly, being turned out into the streets and/or left to die. Are you for that? Are you for families, children who find themselves with out health insurance through no fault of their own being denied any care whatsoever?

    My children get regular check-ups. I'm guessing, based on what Mrs. Abrams said, so do her children. It's easy for us to sit up on our secure and insured hill and say 'no problem here'. But step outside of your own community. A factory closes, a local economy goes south, people are laid off and lose their coverage. No more regular check-ups. No more screening for health issues that could be treated before they get worse.

    I'd like to put you and Mrs. Abrams in a waiting room with the parents of a child who has gone into a coma with undiagnosed diabetes, or stopped breathing due to an asma attack that could have been stopped with an inhaler, or has a form of cancer that was treatable in the early stages. You look at them and explain your concept of 'general welfare.'

    Most reasonable people, conservative and liberal, agree that we are a compassionate nation with a history of smart 'safety net' programs. We learned from the massive poverty and crime during the Great Depression that it is in our best interest to be proactive in preventing poverty, crime, homelessness, with smart, pragmatic programs. The programs you mentioned are not prefect and have all undergone a lot of fine-tuning over the years. And there will always be someone looking for new ways to beat the system.



    Socialism breads tyranny. That is what happened in the USSR and in NAZI Germany. The progressive movement gave birth to both and is trying to separate from its children.
    You, like Katie Abram, really don't have a grasp on some basic concepts of government and the various types of government. It is difficult to discuss politics with you, because we come from different educational backgrounds. If I sound elitist, well, that may be from your POV.

    But I encourage you to brush up on your 20th Century history and poli sci.



    You cannot logically deny the facts. Maybe you could call me some names and give me the STFU award. If given the chance I would like to ask one of my Senators about this RAPING of our founding principles and how they intend to return us to them.
    None have the courage.
    The country is indeed swinging, in some respects, to the left with the expansion of the Federal Government. But that's the platform Barack Obama ran on. And he won the election. This is the Democrats attempt to fix many problems in the financial, energy, and health industries. But there are no FACTS that in anyway indicate a move towards socialism or total government take over of any of these industries. If you believe that, you've been grossly misinformed.

    Many people come to political forums armed with what they think are the facts. They are content to know what they already know and are not very receptive to new or conflicting information. I would love to sit down with you and Katie Abrams, a computer and several reference books and just spend and hour or so helping you get better versed on basic poli sci, economic, and public policy concepts.

    There are also a a number of folks who come to discussion forums simply as partisan or party shills. They are not really interested in discussing anything. They post many times a day, usually copy-pasting opinion pieces and links to stories they saw on other partisan blogs or sites. They argue as true believers, however it is sometimes obvious that they are smart enough and educated enough to see through their own BULL****.

    I encourage you to listen to both sides, retreat and do some independent fact checking from a non-partisan source, then listen some more. And go to Wikipedia or your library and read up on Socialism and try to get a better understanding of what socialism in its many forms is and what it is not.

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    re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by F107HyperSabr View Post
    There are many things that we do and have done since the adoption of the Constitution that were not in the Constitution but just because they were not in the Constitution that does not make them "unconstitutional".
    As usual, you are wrong.

    Article XII
    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
    The Bill of Rights - Text Version | Freedom Documents


    You want to discuss why health care was not in the Constitution well I will tell you. In the 18th century health care was herbs, home mecine, and for those few who happened to live near an APOTHOCARY maybe a few chemicals that few people actually knew how or why they may have worked.

    Health care was not a major undertaking ( no pun intended) so why would the founding fathers put it into the Constitution.

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    re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    And therefore, isn't entitled to an opinion? I really hope Libbos purblically push that notion.

    There was a time when slavery was legal and considered constitutional. Why, even the SCOTUS said that blacks weren't leagal citizens. It just goes to show, that something isn't neccessarily constitutional, or even right, just because a politician, or a SC justice says so.
    Slavery WAS Constitutional until the 14th amendment was passed. I'm not saying it was right, just Constitutional.... that is why we have the amendment process, to update the Constitution to reflect changing conditions and societal views.

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    re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by F107HyperSabr View Post
    That is not what I said and you know it. IF there is no provision for a national referendum in the Constitution and there is no prohibitation of a referendum then we can have one. REMEMBER IF IF there is no provision for a national health insurance financing in the Constitution BUT IF THERE IS NOT prohitting of it then that is legal and actually Constitutional to have a national health plan.
    See Article XII of The Bill Of Rights. (Those are the first 12 Amendments to the Constitution)

    So since we apparently agree that the Constitution does not prohibit a referendum and does not prohibit national health plans we can have both even id we may not like one, he other or neither of tjose things.

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    re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Gee, that's not what it says.
    Show where it says Congress, or the POTUS can have a referendum on anything... here's the text, Artical I, section 8:

    Section 8. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

    To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

    To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

    To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

    To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

    To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

    To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

    To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

    To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

    To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

    To provide and maintain a Navy;

    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

    To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;–And

    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
    XII amendment:

    Article XII
    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
    See how that works?

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    re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    Show where it says Congress, or the POTUS can have a referendum on anything... here's the text, Artical I, section 8:



    XII amendment:



    See how that works?
    That post reveals a extremely limited understanding of constitutional law, interpretation, and precedent.

    As if any word or concept not specifically mentioned in the constitution is therefore not covered by it.

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    re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    That post reveals a extremely limited understanding of constitutional law, interpretation, and precedent.

    As if any word or concept not specifically mentioned in the constitution is therefore not covered by it.
    You seem to think that if it's not specifically prohibited by the Constitution, it's ok. If you read the constitution you will find that it's exactly opposite of that faulty thinking. Read it and learn.

    The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

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    re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    You seem to think that if it's not specifically prohibited by the Constitution, it's ok. If you read the constitution you will find that it's exactly opposite of that faulty thinking. Read it and learn.

    The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net
    Please don't put words into my mouth.

    I'm saying to don't really understand the complexities of constitutional law, interpretation and precedent.

    I'm saying your view of the U.S. Constitution, the direct and implied powers and responsibilities, is simplistic and naive.

    I'm saying your posts and Katie Abrams statements indicate some big misconceptions about our Constitution and the mechanisms of our government.

    I'm saying both of you need to brush up on the basic civics you (hopefully) learned in high school.

    Can I be any more clear about what I'm saying?

    BTW -- since I said nothing about my personal view of the Constitutional powers of the legislative branch, how in the hell would you know what I 'seem to think'. Do you read minds?

    Why don't you ponder this one: In our history, when the federal legislature oversteps and enacts laws that violate the constitution in some manner, how is this usually remedied? (Hint: Checks and balances)

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    re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    Slavery WAS Constitutional until the 14th amendment was passed. I'm not saying it was right, just Constitutional.... that is why we have the amendment process, to update the Constitution to reflect changing conditions and societal views.
    Read the Thirteenth Amendment, please.

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