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Thread: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

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    re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    That post reveals a extremely limited understanding of constitutional law, interpretation, and precedent.

    As if any word or concept not specifically mentioned in the constitution is therefore not covered by it.
    The Constitution establishes the envelope of federal govt power. Read the 10th Amerndment.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    The Constitution establishes the envelope of federal govt power. Read the 10th Amerndment.
    Yes -- several sheets of paper. An inspired document. I have read it.

    But I'm also aware that there are LIBRARIES FULL OF CASE LAW AND SUPREME COURT OPINIONS CONCERNING EVERY SINGLE WORD ON THAT DOCUMENT.

    Get better informed about that and stop reading the Constitution through a keyhole of stubborn partisanship.

    "The second amendment doesn't mention assault weapons."

    Right. And the first amendment doesn't mention child pornography.

    Constitutional case law. Supreme court opinions. Precedent.
    Without a basic understanding of what they are and how they effect the powers of government, a person is handicapped by their own ignorance.

    Katie Abram is a perfect example. A little bit of knowledge... She's read the document (or heard Glenn Beck read it) but has no concept of the volumes of text in a law library that expand upon what that document says.

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    re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunor View Post
    I believe that we are abandoning our founding principles. The US Constitution is in danger of being made irrelevant by the 2 parties.
    If you agree that the US Constitution is the frame work all laws must fit within and our government has not stayed within that framework then we have violated our founding principles or in other words “dismantling the country”

    I was at the Lebanon, PA meeting and people read directly from the bill and asked questions based on that. How is that misinformed? Some questions based on frustration have been asked that is true but they are trying to express that frustration and these in these forums are to phrased as a question so the politicians can pontificate & try to look good.

    There has been a lot of debate (on the news channels) on the health care bill that you may agree is BS & political posturing. What I would like to see is a debate on Constitutional grounds.
    Can they list next to each provision of whatever bill they pass what articles of the US Constitution were discussed and what articles give them the authority to allow that provision to remain? I don’t think they have the fortitude.

    I have been that person working 2 jobs with no insurance with a 2 year old son, who suffered grand mal seizures, spent a week in the hospital with no explanation. I understand what you are saying however, government is not a charity. The public monies should not be used for that purpose.

    We are a compassionate nation but to take (steal) from one to give to the other is wrong. We all love the story of Robin Hood but that is no way to run the government.
    I believe we can discuss politics regardless of our backgrounds or education. 20th century political history shows us that the progressive (socialist) movement has spawned great things like the USSR with the murder of millions of its citizens. The progressives gave us NAZI Germany, Communist China, Pol Pot, and others that have repressed their people and crush liberty.
    As far as the Socialist comment goes I would argue Fascist. Go to Fascism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and scroll down to the heading “National corporatism, national socialism and national syndicalism” you will see that we are on the very edge of falling into a fascist democracy.
    Government has not taken over the corporations (ok may be GM) but it is favoring companies that can push its political agenda. Both parties have done this to us and we have allowed it to happen.
    We have been allowing them (the progressives) to destroy our nation for a long time. I don’t know why we have become vocal now. It should have been years ago. We lost our faith in the 2 party system, some years ago, some during the last administration and others in the last few months.
    Obama can do a lot, so long as he does not violate his oath of office by not staying within the frame work of the US Constitution.
    If you are in south central PA I would be happy to meet and discuss anything you like. I’m sure you will find I am not what you think.
    The simple fact is the federal government has no authority to provide health care. As a responsible employer, yes it does. As a governing body, to force this on the population, HELL NO.
    Which principles are we abandoning ? Can you spell that out ? " I believe that we are abandoning our founding principles. "

    If you fail to specify what priciples we are abandoning how can you convince those of us who sceptical of such scare tatics. So specify the "principles" so can weigh in and agree or disagree whether what you specify are actually principles.
    “I do not recall the Viet Cong asking me if I was a natural born or Naturalized American before they shot at me, they just shot at all of us “ f107HyperSabr

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    re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by F107HyperSabr View Post
    Which principles are we abandoning ? Can you spell that out ? " I believe that we are abandoning our founding principles. "

    If you fail to specify what priciples we are abandoning how can you convince those of us who sceptical of such scare tatics. So specify the "principles" so can weigh in and agree or disagree whether what you specify are actually principles.
    HMMM let me see.
    The Constitution and the Bill of Rights maybe? Perhaps the Federalist Papers could shine a little light on this for you.
    What do you think our founding principles are?
    Here is what I see as failures in society. I do not believe government can solve the issue. I believe that Government over the years has caused the problem by allowing us to feel the society as a whole is doing something so I don’t have to.
    We are abandoning liberty by asking the government to be responsible for us.
    We have affirmed our God given rights in the bill of rights and limit them.
    We claim the US Constitution is the law of the land and ignore it.
    We want others to defend us but we are unwilling to defend others.
    We pay lip service to limited government and its growing out of control.
    We say we are responsible but them we borrow beyond our means (both personally & collectively)
    We think people should be nicer but we are tight fisted misers who can’t have a discussion without blowing up because we disagree and we don’t say thank you to our servers in a restaurant.
    We say something should be done but we won’t help our neighbors.

    George washington quotes:
    - The Constitution is the guide which I never will abandon.
    - Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.
    - Mankind, when left to themselves, are unfit for their own government
    - Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
    - Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness.
    - Few men have virtue to withstand the highest bidder.
    - If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.

    Ben Franklin Quotes:
    - When in doubt, don't.
    - A learned blockhead is a greater blockhead than an ignorant one.
    - Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    - Necessity never made a good bargain.
    - Rather go to bed with out dinner than to rise in debt.

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    re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Yes -- several sheets of paper. An inspired document. I have read it.

    But I'm also aware that there are LIBRARIES FULL OF CASE LAW AND SUPREME COURT OPINIONS CONCERNING EVERY SINGLE WORD ON THAT DOCUMENT.

    Get better informed about that and stop reading the Constitution through a keyhole of stubborn partisanship.

    "The second amendment doesn't mention assault weapons."

    Right. And the first amendment doesn't mention child pornography.

    Constitutional case law. Supreme court opinions. Precedent.
    Without a basic understanding of what they are and how they effect the powers of government, a person is handicapped by their own ignorance.

    Katie Abram is a perfect example. A little bit of knowledge... She's read the document (or heard Glenn Beck read it) but has no concept of the volumes of text in a law library that expand upon what that document says.
    You sir are absolutely correct.
    I know nothing of case law but I do know that lawyers who right the law and then judge the law have done what they can to change the law.
    We have id10t judges that site international & foreign law in judgments. That ain’t right.
    We have politicians who take an oath of office & have no idea what their oath means (both state & federal). That ain’t right.
    We have a military full of people who are expected to know an unlawful order but are provided no training on what that means. That ain’t right.
    Government screws up everything. If we could trust the bastards to do what it right you would not see us in the town halls and these forums harming your intellect with our simple minded philosophy on how government in this country was INTENDED to run. Sorry, heaven forbid I with my simple understanding should disagree with the high and mighty judges who never get it wrong.
    I’m no lawyer, I’m no Republican, I’m no Democrat and I’m not going to sit down & shut up like I’m told to either.

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    Re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunor View Post
    HMMM let me see.
    The Constitution and the Bill of Rights maybe? Perhaps the Federalist Papers could shine a little light on this for you.
    What do you think our founding principles are?
    Here is what I see as failures in society. I do not believe government can solve the issue. I believe that Government over the years has caused the problem by allowing us to feel the society as a whole is doing something so I don’t have to.
    We are abandoning liberty by asking the government to be responsible for us.
    We have affirmed our God given rights in the bill of rights and limit them.
    We claim the US Constitution is the law of the land and ignore it.
    We want others to defend us but we are unwilling to defend others.
    We pay lip service to limited government and its growing out of control.
    We say we are responsible but them we borrow beyond our means (both personally & collectively)
    We think people should be nicer but we are tight fisted misers who can’t have a discussion without blowing up because we disagree and we don’t say thank you to our servers in a restaurant.
    We say something should be done but we won’t help our neighbors.

    George washington quotes:
    - The Constitution is the guide which I never will abandon.
    - Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.
    - Mankind, when left to themselves, are unfit for their own government
    - Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
    - Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness.
    - Few men have virtue to withstand the highest bidder.
    - If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.

    Ben Franklin Quotes:
    - When in doubt, don't.
    - A learned blockhead is a greater blockhead than an ignorant one.
    - Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    - Necessity never made a good bargain.
    - Rather go to bed with out dinner than to rise in debt.
    Hnaks you for your intelligent and detailed response in in this deabte. This will take more than one post to respond. Looks like a good debate can be had here. What you threw back at me are mostly your beliefs and I am not saying that they are wrong or that I necessarily disagree and as a matter of I an in sympathy with a lot of what you say. You said "Here is what I see as failures in society. I do not believe government can solve the issue."

    The issue what "dismantling of our constitution and what the founding fathers built and or wrote. The issue went on to the point where certain people stated that the Constituion "prohibited" the govenment from eother sponsoring, being a guarantor, or performing healthcare. There also was a contention the the bailouts are unconstitutional.

    Now you " I do not believe government can solve the issue." Well yes there are issues that the government cannot and also should not solve. For the sake of arguement let us say that we agree that government should not be involved in the helthcare issue. Yet didn't yoou and others sya that it was unconstitutional or gevernment to be involved in healthcare insuarnce?

    I wanted to know what article or principles prohibit goverrnment involvement in helatcare and no one has been able to identify those priciples other than make nice true motherhood statements about liberty. Your quotes are great and I agree with all of them. The point is how do we interpret them. Let us rememebr that those quote were also made 230 years ago. Most of them state principle or warnings that are based in the 18th century. Most apply 100 % today IN PRINCIPLE but some may have to be tempered to include today's conditions.

    I like this one a lot "- The Constitution is the guide which I never will abandon." It also has laws that go above a guide. Yet as a whole being a guide the Constitution is then a living thing and needs to be tweaked to apply to present day conditions. I say tweaked not radically changed.

    Moe to come.
    “I do not recall the Viet Cong asking me if I was a natural born or Naturalized American before they shot at me, they just shot at all of us “ f107HyperSabr

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    Re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Thunor said "We are abandoning liberty by asking the government to be responsible for us."

    Well that is true in some cases but it is also true that one reason that we have allowed government to be responsible for us or government decided to be responsible for us is becasue we failed or could not be responsible oursleves. One such case was the need of Social Security. Back before the industrial revilution and the slow but steady improvement in medicine people died earlier therefore we didn't have the "burden" of taking care of our elders. I say before the indistrial revilution becasue prior to that we were very much agrarian and people sort of had a farm or farmlette with room to have our elders live untill they died. Agrarian families also were able to raise at least a level of crops and/or animals above the starvation level. Also even the elderly could do some albiet small level of work on the farm to at least contribute to their keep.

    With industrialization and people migrating to cities this safety net of the family farm was no longer avaialble. When people got too old to work in a factory they became "nonproductive" and there was no more income coming in. Now one can say that those people who worked in those factories in the later part of the 19th and early part of the 20th century sghould have planned ahead, saved their own money for the golden olden days. They should have been "selfreliant". Well if they made enough to sustain themselves and their families ok maybe so. Yet the truth is that the workers made jsut about enough to keep from straving and walking around naked.

    Yet even Social Security is not totally a government resposibity program now is it ! People pay into it as they would would for an insurance cooperative.

    Is SS a social program! Yes. Can it be called a "socialist" program? Well in theory and also in application it looks like a socilaist program, it acts like a socialst program, so yes it is a socialist program. Is SS something that is good for society. I think so. Does the creation and use of one socilist program make us a "socialist" nation ? No!!

    Is there a prohibition in he Constitution against SS ? Does the Constitution have any article in it to allow SS ? I don't see either one, prohibiting or explicitly allowing SS.

    Why is there no prohibition or explicte condoning of SS ? Well maybe because in the 18th century our founding fathers created laws, rights, and the Constitution for the type of world that they lived in and they did not foresee the coming industrial age and migration of peoples from farm to city.

    Virtually all of the principles laid out in the Constituion are timeless but some need a tweak from time to time to make it work and adopt it for the times that we are living in.


    Certain freedoms such as reedom of speach, freedom from a governmentally established religion an so forth should never change.

    But providing a basis so that retired people do not starve to death well if our religious fraternal, trade, and professional institutions cannot or are unwilling to do that who but the government can ?
    “I do not recall the Viet Cong asking me if I was a natural born or Naturalized American before they shot at me, they just shot at all of us “ f107HyperSabr

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    Re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by F107HyperSabr View Post
    Thunor said "We are abandoning liberty by asking the government to be responsible for us."

    Certain freedoms such as reedom of speach, freedom from a governmentally established religion an so forth should never change.

    But providing a basis so that retired people do not starve to death well if our religious fraternal, trade, and professional institutions cannot or are unwilling to do that who but the government can ?
    As detailed in the “Bill of Rights”, which is now part of the Constitution because it was legally changed, they do not have the authority because of the 10th amendment.
    Amendment X
    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
    I don’t care who can see this or not, they are violating state & individual rights all over the place. They have done it before, they will do it again & I for one am tired of it. Both the D&R parties suck and can go to Hell. The more I see the more I am convinced that they are the same. The Ds are just on a fast track.
    1. They want to force you to buy something you may not want (Individual rights)
    2. The possibility to take your property (money) to give to someone else (Individual rights)
    3. They will have to mandate laws to the states on how to prosecute & most likely regulate the industry(States rights)
    4. Fine you for not obeying an illegitimate law (Individual rights)
    They ass-u-me, that we don’t care about our freedom and maybe you don’t. I care about mine & those around me.
    Listen to this audio linked below. It will take 10 whole minutes. It is Reagan from 1961 talking about Socialized Medicine.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs"]YouTube - Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine[/ame]

    Just remember Hitler was a Progressive, a Socialist and a Fascist. Most of the D party claim to be progressives and lean socialist. Hitler would be proud of them. His goons called people names for disagreeing. I wonder, does calling dissenters “Un-American” count?
    Last edited by Thunor; 08-16-09 at 09:02 PM.

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    Re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunor View Post
    As detailed in the “Bill of Rights”, which is now part of the Constitution because it was legally changed, they do not have the authority because of the 10th amendment.
    Amendment X
    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
    I don’t care who can see this or not, they are violating state & individual rights all over the place. They have done it before, they will do it again & I for one am tired of it. Both the D&R parties suck and can go to Hell. The more I see the more I am convinced that they are the same. The Ds are just on a fast track.
    1. They want to force you to buy something you may not want (Individual rights)
    2. The possibility to take your property (money) to give to someone else (Individual rights)
    3. They will have to mandate laws to the states on how to prosecute & most likely regulate the industry(States rights)
    4. Fine you for not obeying an illegitimate law (Individual rights)
    They ass-u-me, that we don’t care about our freedom and maybe you don’t. I care about mine & those around me.
    Listen to this audio linked below. It will take 10 whole minutes. It is Reagan from 1961 talking about Socialized Medicine.
    YouTube - Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine
    Any one of us can take certain articles ( bill of rights included ) and and make an arguement for or against healtcare reform.

    I beleive that I have read that Reagan piece before or at least major excerpts from it. In fact Reagan was the one who coined the terme "socialized medicine". Do you know why Reagan was so hot against Medicare? One good theeory is that his father-inlaw highly influenced him and/or he was going in-law-dad a favor. You see daddy-in-law was an MD and at that time docs were dead set against Medicare. Of back them docs pretty charged whatver the hell they wanted and us poor insurance companies paid it or the people without insurance paid it.

    Medicare has it's flaws but it has provided an opportnity for a lot of our eleders to have lived a bit longer.

    You say " They want to force you to buy something you may not want (Individual rights)
    " Well the states do that already even though the states want states rights yet don't the staes make to carry liability( Property/BI) insurance for the right to own/operate a motor vehicle ? Don't states make companies carry Workers Comp insurance to compensate injured workers? States even set the Comp schedules that us poor insurance companies must pay out. yet that all is called for the public good or for the good of the public. The same can be said of local taxes that go mostly for edication. If you do not believe in universal education you may try to claim that local txes are "illigitimate" because they go for free education for people you may not like or maybe ou like them but feel that you do not want o pay for their kid's education.

    You say "The possibility to take your property (money) to give to someone else (Individual rights)" Well if you are talking about taxes the Constitution gives Congress that right.

    You say "They will have to mandate laws to the states on how to prosecute & most likely regulate the industry(States rights)". Well maybe but us ppoor insurance companies are aleady regulated by 50 staes, one district, and some territories. Yet medicare does have compensation schedule so my guess is that yes there will be Federals reqs. If it's a Fedreal program yes it will have Federal regs. Well if you are an absolute states rightist I can see where you feel that way. Well you know we are a modern, large, industrial nation now and are not 13 self contained former colonies anymore.

    You say "Fine you for not obeying an illegitimate law (Individual rights)" Wel that depends on which laws you consider illegitimate. People who are pot heads, or crack heads, oxycondon, or heroine addicts may consider drug laws as illegitimate. Some legal drug manufacturers may consider the laws enforced by the FDA as illligitimate. Dirt bags and even honest conscientious objectors considered draft laws of the selctive service as illegitimate law.

    A major part of what we consider as legal or illegal, legitimate or illigitimate, is governed by our own belief system.
    Last edited by F107HyperSabr; 08-16-09 at 09:42 PM.
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    Re: Angry Man Tells Specter: God Will Judge You

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunor View Post
    As detailed in the “Bill of Rights”, which is now part of the Constitution because it was legally changed, they do not have the authority because of the 10th amendment.
    Amendment X
    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
    I don’t care who can see this or not, they are violating state & individual rights all over the place. They have done it before, they will do it again & I for one am tired of it. Both the D&R parties suck and can go to Hell. The more I see the more I am convinced that they are the same. The Ds are just on a fast track.
    1. They want to force you to buy something you may not want (Individual rights)
    2. The possibility to take your property (money) to give to someone else (Individual rights)
    3. They will have to mandate laws to the states on how to prosecute & most likely regulate the industry(States rights)
    4. Fine you for not obeying an illegitimate law (Individual rights)
    They ass-u-me, that we don’t care about our freedom and maybe you don’t. I care about mine & those around me.
    Listen to this audio linked below. It will take 10 whole minutes. It is Reagan from 1961 talking about Socialized Medicine.
    YouTube - Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine

    Just remember Hitler was a Progressive, a Socialist and a Fascist. Most of the D party claim to be progressives and lean socialist. Hitler would be proud of them. His goons called people names for disagreeing. I wonder, does calling dissenters “Un-American” count?
    Up until this post I had great respect for you and actaully thought that you wanted to conduct an intelligent debate but that Hitler and Nazi remark just derailed that. You need to go and study some independent history ofd how the NAZI'S came to power, their hijacking of the worker/sociliast party opration, their tie in with the German banks and industrialists, etc

    Unfortunately desenters such as those of us who thought that The Shrub was right on target with going into Afghanistan but wrong a hell about Iraq were called “Un-American”. Many of us who felt that way are Vietnam Vets. So I guess we were “Un-American” when we went to Vietnam right !?!?!?!?

    Hitler did not national banks or industries unless they were Jewish or the owners/ceos' did not cooperate. You really need to read becasue NATIONAL SOCIALISM may be naional but it was hardly socilaist just a the Est Greman Democratic Republic was not democratic nor was it a republic.

    I do not see this debate going any further until you learn something about Hitler and NAZISM.

    ps My parents survived forced labor camps in Germany and I heard all about what they went through and read tons of material in more than just English so believe me HITLER was hardly a "PROGRESSIVE.
    Last edited by F107HyperSabr; 08-16-09 at 09:58 PM.
    “I do not recall the Viet Cong asking me if I was a natural born or Naturalized American before they shot at me, they just shot at all of us “ f107HyperSabr

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