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Thread: After 6 Months, More View Obama's Presidency as a 'Failure' Than Bush's

  1. #71
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    Re: After 6 Months, More View Obama's Presidency as a 'Failure' Than Bush's

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    So.... the policy you choose to cite is the 2001 tax cut?
    What -was- inflation 2001-2008?

    ... Uh, inflation was noticeable before 2008. Try 2005.

    Really?
    The recession was over at the end of the 3rd quarter of 2001.
    Current (and worse) recession.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 08-07-09 at 12:36 PM.

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    Re: After 6 Months, More View Obama's Presidency as a 'Failure' Than Bush's

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    ... Uh, inflation was noticeable before 2008. Try 2005.
    I asked you what it was. Well?
    And, how did the 2001 tax cut cause it?

    Current (and worse) recession.
    We're discussing GWBs polices in place as of 20 JUly 2001.

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    Re: After 6 Months, More View Obama's Presidency as a 'Failure' Than Bush's

    [quote=Goobieman;1058179576]
    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    ... Uh, inflation was noticeable before 2008. Try 2005.[/qupte]
    I asked you what it was. Well?


    We're discussing GWBs polices in place as of 20 JUly 2001.
    ... yeah, I know. The tax cut policy initiated then was a longterm deal with a long term effect, however.

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    Re: After 6 Months, More View Obama's Presidency as a 'Failure' Than Bush's

    [quote=Morality Games;1058179577]
    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post

    ... yeah, I know. The tax cut policy initiated then was a longterm deal with a long term effect, however.

    You'll have to do a LOT better than that.

    You also haven't posted the inflation rates 2001-2008.

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    Re: After 6 Months, More View Obama's Presidency as a 'Failure' Than Bush's

    [quote=Goobieman;1058179579]
    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post

    You'll have to do a LOT better than that.

    You also haven't posted the inflation rates 2001-2008.
    I'm not your go to guy. Inflation rates aren't necessary unless you reject either of the following:

    Point #1 Bush did not run up debt.

    Point #2 Debt does not create inflation.

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    Re: After 6 Months, More View Obama's Presidency as a 'Failure' Than Bush's

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    I'm not your go to guy. Inflation rates aren't necessary...
    You claimed:

    Cutting taxes while upping spending created debt which contributed to inflation.
    For this claim to carry any weight, you have to show that:
    1- Inflation increased to some significant degree 2001-2008
    2- Said increase was due to the tax cut.

    Now, you can support your claim, or you can admit that you cannot.

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    Re: After 6 Months, More View Obama's Presidency as a 'Failure' Than Bush's

    1- Inflation increased to some significant degree 2001-2008
    "sigh" Fine.

    New Inflation Rates with Chart, Graph and Table: 1999-2008 - US Inflation Calculator

    2001: 2.8
    2002: 1.6
    2003: 2.3
    2004: 2.7
    2005: 3.4
    2006: 3.2
    2007: 2.8
    2008: 5.0

    ... with two rebounds in 2002 and 2008, but an overall upward trend.

    2- Said increase was due to the tax cut.
    How can it not be due to the tax cuts? Bush continued to run major government programs (notably Defense), without revisions, while financing them with borrowing (from China for example) instead of domestic dollars. The United States government is the insurer of the worth of the U.S. dollar. When bondholders (foreign and domestic) doubt the government's ability to pay back debt (which occurs when debt increases with no clear source of revenue for paying the interest) then the value of the dollar drops. Hence the price of consumer goods and services rose and swallowed up the benefits of the Bush tax cuts and then some, because when the dollar is worth less, businesses need more of it to accommodate the difference.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 08-07-09 at 01:08 PM.

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    Re: After 6 Months, More View Obama's Presidency as a 'Failure' Than Bush's

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    "sigh" Fine.
    Sorry that you're offended by someone having the audacity to ask you to support your claims. if your ego bruises that easily, you probably ought to leave.

    2001: 2.8
    2002: 1.6
    2003: 2.3
    2004: 2.7
    2005: 3.4
    2006: 3.2
    2007: 2.8
    2008: 5.0
    ... with two rebounds in 2002 and 2008, but an overall upward trend.
    You can try to spin it that way if you want, but an objective look will find that the averagre rate of inflation, including 2008, was a meager <3.0%. If you leave out 2008, the average is <2.7%, LESS than it was in 2001.

    Thus, The "upward trend" (of +0.2%) is only because of 2008 -- so, if you want your claim to stand, you'll have to show that the jump in 2008 can be directly and uniquely traced to the 2001 tax cut.

    How can it not be due to the tax cuts?
    Your claim to prove, not mine to negate.

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    Re: After 6 Months, More View Obama's Presidency as a 'Failure' Than Bush's

    You can try to spin it that way if you want, but an objective look will find that the averagre rate of inflation, including 2008, was a meager <3.0%. If you leave out 2008, the average is <2.7%, LESS than it was in 2001.
    Meager...? While 3% is an intuitively small number, it has enormous impacts on consumer goods, real estate, etc. At 10% you would be paying 4-8$ on a snickers. If the wages of mid-level employees remain static, then the collective increase on material goods and services can be catastrophic.

    More than that, a steady increase is not the only route by which the 2001 tax cuts would cause inflation. And why the hell would you compare the average to a particular?

    Thus, The "upward trend" (of +0.2%) is only because of 2008 -- so, if you want your claim to stand, you'll have to show that the jump in 2008 can be directly and uniquely traced to the 2001 tax cut.
    I'm not sure if I would phrase it like that. Running government programs on borrowed money without having a clear source of revenue for paying back the interest causes inflation. The tax cuts wouldn't have caused inflation if Bush had somehow scaled back expenses; as it is, he continued to run Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, Defense, and subsidies to miscellaneous organizations, regions, and categories of person.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 08-07-09 at 01:34 PM.

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    Re: After 6 Months, More View Obama's Presidency as a 'Failure' Than Bush's

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Meager...? While 3% is an intuitively small number, it has enormous impacts on consumer goods, real estate, etc. At 10% you would be paying 4-8$ on a snickers.
    First of all, your source shows 3.8% inflation in 2008.

    Historical Inflation Rates: 1914-2009, Annual and Monthly Table - US Inflation Calculator

    This brings the 2001-2008 average to 2.8%, which is -exactly- what it was in 2001. As such, your argument regarding an increase in inflation is fully negated.

    Average inflation since 1945 is 4.1%. Compare the 2.8% average inflation to that 4.1% post-war average, and its pretty clear that 2.8% is indeed "meager".

    More than that, a steady increase....
    ...that does not exist.

    So, again, if you want your claim to stand, you'll have to show that the jump in 2008 can be directly and uniquely traced to the 2001 tax cut.

    But then, you first need to show that there was a jump to begin with.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 08-07-09 at 01:45 PM.

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