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Thread: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Change your scenario to a young black professional decked out with a pastel polo shirt, leather jacket, Ray-ban sunglasses, and other fashion elements from the Sharper Image catalog, and you would have a more substantial argument.
    That individual's race was negated by the overwhelming other positive attributes. Are you really claiming that a cop is blind to color and will not deferentiate between an Afro-American and Caucasian?

    My only point was that profling is made in an array of ways, and Afro-Americans are unfortunately discriminated as more likely to be commiting a crime or to be a criminal. So if you put two identical males, one black and one white, in the same scenario and doing the same thing... A cop would assess the situation and in that assessment, factor in whether the man was black or white. If the individual was black, it is very, very likely that the cop will be more alerted.
    Last edited by Tubub; 08-01-09 at 01:51 AM.
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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    Powell was pressured by every single person in the White House and the country to make that speech? If he hadn't made the speech, you'd be raving that it was anti-american and unpatriotic. Not to mention the fact Powell was misled about the rationale to go to war, Tenet giving him evidence that had been flagged by analysts though not making Powell aware of that.

    Your notionthat Powell is some careerist that just panders to his superiors is simply false
    Powell was known for being an ass kissing political officer his entire career. You are looking at no Patton in Powell's mirror.

    And you are wrong, I supported the war in Iraq, but if I had been Secretary of State I would have said this presentation about WMD is speculation, and I am not going before the UN to make it, send Rumsfeld on this case.

    I would have told Bush I think we need to make the case Saddam is the WMD, that is the case we should make. And talk more about the democratisation project.

    Oh and by the way, we are not sending enough troops in, as per the "Powell Doctrine", you know, the doctrine with Powell's name on it that Powell never really defended when it mattered most?

    Because Powell went back to his reflex, tell them what they want to hear.

    Then I went to NATO headquarters to get ****faced on Belgium beer.
    Last edited by JW Frogen; 08-01-09 at 01:55 AM.

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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by JW Frogen View Post
    Powell's response before the UN when they told him his WMD presentation was full of crap?
    I covered that. It pissed me off too. But I believe he is a man of conscience and like Tommy Thompson, he jumped ship with Bush Corp.

    I would stop short of calling a man who has given so much and sacrificed so much for our country an Uncle Tom. But I never said he was perfect. But I don't think he would ever do anything to harm our country intentionally. You gotta remember, with the help of some ingenious Rove strategy coupled with the likes of FOXNews, et al, the whole nation was mislead. From the bottom to the top. I never said Powell had a crystal ball. As soon as he got hip, we all saw what he did. He bailed.

    I think he is a good man.

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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by JW Frogen View Post
    Powell was known for being an ass kissing political officer his entire career. You are looking at no Patton in Powell's mirror.
    Bull****. Cite one source of this.

    And you are wrong, I supported the war in Iraq, but if I had been Secretary of State I would have said this presentation about WMD is speculation, and I am not going before the UN to make it, send Rumsfeld on this case.
    The big if. I'm sure if you were Secretary of State, you would personally have gone to Iraq and beat the **** out of Saddam Hussein. If

    I think we need to make the case Saddam is the WMD, that is the case we should make.
    The UN would tell you that years of economic sanctions and no-fly zones have made Saddam a secondary threat.

    Oh and by the way, we are not sending enough troops in, as per the "Powell Doctrine", you know, the doctrine with Powell's name on it that Powell never really defended when it mattered most?
    Powell did defend it. Powell did everything he could to put more boots on the ground and to secure a better occupation... but that is not his job. Rumsefeld and Franks handled the war, and Rummy ended ORHA and therefore the State Department's prominence on the occupation, and replaced Jay Garner with the man he handpicked: Paul Bremer.

    What evidence do you have that Powell did not repeatedly contest troop levels? You'd do yourself a favor by looking at what former officials say about the matter.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    I covered that. It pissed me off too. But I believe he is a man of conscience and like Tommy Thompson, he jumped ship with Bush Corp.

    I would stop short of calling a man who has given so much and sacrificed so much for our country an Uncle Tom. But I never said he was perfect. But I don't think he would ever do anything to harm our country intentionally. You gotta remember, with the help of some ingenious Rove strategy coupled with the likes of FOXNews, et al, the whole nation was mislead. From the bottom to the top. I never said Powell had a crystal ball. As soon as he got hip, we all saw what he did. He bailed.

    I think he is a good man.
    Powell knew that the case the CIA and Department of Defense gave him was not the kind of solid intelligence he would use to fight a military battle, but he used to to fight the UN battle because that is how he moved up his entire career.

    And Powell was disgraceful in allowing Rumsfeld to dominate the military strategy, the minimal force strategy that got us into so much trouble and strife.

    And where was Powell's voice when General Shinski told everyone we were not using the right amount of force, not enough troops, you know, the Powell doctrine.

    Powell was AWOL.

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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    That individual's race was negated by the overwhelming other positive attributes. Are you really claiming that a cop is blind to color and will not deferentiate between an Afro-American and Caucasian?
    The only thing I am claiming is that your so-called evidence does not prove your case. You have demonstrated in abundance that minorities perceive discrimination--something with which I do not disagree. You have not shown how an individual may rationally and objectively discern discrimination; you have not shown by what combination of empirical indicators one may know he or she is receiving discriminatory treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    My only point was that profling is made in an array of ways, and Afro-Americans are unfortunately discriminated as more likely to be commiting a crime or to be a criminal. So if you put two identical males, one black and one white, in the same scenario and doing the same thing... A cop would assess the situation and in that assessment, factor in whether the man was black or white. If the individual was black, it is very, very likely that the cop will be more alerted.
    You are presuming the same groupthink on the part of cops that you properly reject on the part of minorities.

    The flaw in the statistical models is that they only work at a broad level addressing broad group dynamics. At the level of the individual, the model may be negated by any number of personal characteristics--there is no more a monolithic "cop" mentality than there is a monolithic "black" mentality. No matter how dramatic the statistics are, not all minorities perceive the discrimination, and not all police are guilty of discrimination. Both groups display significant variation within their respective sample populations.

    How do you determine who is and who is not either discriminating or discriminated against? That is the question--and it is not one your statistics even begin to answer.

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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by JW Frogen View Post
    Powell knew that the case the CIA and Department of Defense gave him was not the kind of solid intelligence he would use to fight a military battle, but he used to to fight the UN battle because that is how he moved up his entire career.

    And Powell was disgraceful in allowing Rumsfeld to dominate the military strategy, the minimal force strategy that got us into so much trouble and strife.

    And where was Powell's voice when General Shinski told everyone we were not using the right amount of force, not enough troops, you know, the Powell doctrine.

    Powell was AWOL.
    What fails to enter your mind is that Powell was Secretary of State. It is not a State function to judge military policy and decision... he would be out of line if he publicly was denouncing what the SoD was doing. He did as much as he could within SoS parameters.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    That individual's race was negated by the overwhelming other positive attributes. Are you really claiming that a cop is blind to color and will not deferentiate between an Afro-American and Caucasian?

    My only point was that profling is made in an array of ways, and Afro-Americans are unfortunately discriminated as more likely to be commiting a crime or to be a criminal. So if you put two identical males, one black and one white, in the same scenario and doing the same thing... A cop would assess the situation and in that assessment, factor in whether the man was black or white. If the individual was black, it is very, very likely that the cop will be more alerted.
    And you think that is only because of his skin color?

    Interesting......

    But you do have a very valid point.

    But I have to ask. Changing scenerios, if you walked into a yard and there was a pitt bull and a golden lab, which one would you be more cautious of?

    Would you be guilty of animal profiling or just exercizing instinctive self-preservation?

    Much to ponder.
    Last edited by Captain America; 08-01-09 at 02:09 AM.

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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    Bull****. Cite one source of this.


    The big if. I'm sure if you were Secretary of State, you would personally have gone to Iraq and beat the **** out of Saddam Hussein. If


    The UN would tell you that years of economic sanctions and no-fly zones have made Saddam a secondary threat.


    Powell did defend it. Powell did everything he could to put more boots on the ground and to secure a better occupation... but that is not his job. Rumsefeld and Franks handled the war, and Rummy ended ORHA and therefore the State Department's prominence on the occupation, and replaced Jay Garner with the man he handpicked: Paul Bremer.

    What evidence do you have that Powell did not repeatedly contest troop levels? You'd do yourself a favor by looking at what former officials say about the matter.
    Powell did not do anything to get more boots on the ground, nothing, nadda; he made not one strong statement against DOD plans ever, except one inane pottery barn statement to the President.

    He did not risk his position to defend the doctrine named after him.

    How pathetic is that?

    Incidentally, Powell was also tragically wrong about the First Gulf War, he warned Bush Snr we would loose 50,000 troops and may not be able to remove Saddam from Kuwait.

    Had Powell been headed in that war Kuwait would now be Saddam's prison playground?

    But when that war was successful, Powell had no problem taking credit for it.

    Just as he had no problem bailing out on a war he never did a thing to stop, because he thought it would be unsuccessful?

    Powell is the kind of leader that makes good headlines, media types love him, but no real soldier would want to fight with, or under him.
    Last edited by JW Frogen; 08-01-09 at 02:11 AM.

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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    What fails to enter your mind is that Powell was Secretary of State. It is not a State function to judge military policy and decision... he would be out of line if he publicly was denouncing what the SoD was doing. He did as much as he could within SoS parameters.
    Oh yes it is!

    It is State's job to say the military strategy is incapable of delivering the political results we are looking for. Even worse for Powell he had more military credentials than Rummy, but he never had the balls to take Rummy on, ever.

    Not publically, not in the White House.
    Last edited by JW Frogen; 08-01-09 at 02:13 AM.

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