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Thread: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by aps View Post
    That's a good question. I think it's a known fact that black people are viewed more suspiciously than white people. And there may be a valid reason for that. Neverthless, they are often treated differently.
    But that doesn't really answer the question. On what basis would any person know they are being treated differently?

    Think about it. Cop responds to a 911 call and investigates. He asks people for ID, et cetera. What indicates different treatment, especially to the people in the immediate situation?

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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by aps View Post
    That's a good question. I think it's a known fact that black people are viewed more suspiciously than white people. And there may be a valid reason for that. Neverthless, they are often treated differently.
    The question still stands. How can a white, or black person state, with any certainty, that one, or the other is treated any differently by the cops?

    A white person can't say that blacks are treated differently than whites, just like a black person can't say that blacks are treated any differently than whites. It's completely assinine to think otherwise.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    Are you joking? In a state like Masachusetts, the people in bad neighborhoods are almost all minorities... That would lead a cop to be more suspicious of a minority than a white person, who tends to be the inhabitant of better neighborhoods. That can undoubtedly be frustrating for a normal minority who has done nothing wrong... in bad neighborhood or good. But that's no excuse to throw a tantrum like Gates did.

    Powell worded it well.
    And, you know this to be fact, how? Because you've bought into the BS, or what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by apstd
    And, you know this to be fact, how? Because you've bought into the BS, or what?
    52% of Blacks and Non-White Hispanics testify to being discriminated by police


    3/4 of young black men pulled over because they are black
    The 57-year-old black barber from Spartanburg, S.C., believes the police stop, which did not result in a ticket or arrest, was motivated by his color -- a practice called racial profiling.

    "It really burned me up," said Robinson.

    He's not alone in seeing a pattern.

    A majority of Americans, regardless of their race, believe that racial profiling is widespread in this country, says a new Gallup poll. And three-fourths of young black men in the poll say they believe they have been pulled over just because they are black.

    Poll respondents were told, "It has been reported that police officers stop motorists of certain racial or ethnic groups because they believe that these groups are more likely than others to commit certain types of crimes." Then they were asked what they thought.

    More than four out of 10 blacks of all ages and both genders said they believe they've been stopped because of their race, said the poll, part of Gallup's annual social audit of black-white relations.

    "It was very skewed toward young black men, with 72 percent saying they've been stopped, many of them multiple times," Frank Newport, Gallup's editor in chief, said.
    Now how are we going to refute this evidence? Racism? I am foreseeing you going against overwhelming evidence with your own unsubstantiated speculation.

    [NOTE: I know it for a fact because I have been around numerous people, including myself, that have racially profiled. People profile in a variety of ways... racial is not exluded just because it is politically taboo and arguably morally wrong.

    It is simple logic that a cop will be more suspicious of a certain background that is known to have large criminal percentage rates. If a cop sees a 19 year old African-American male, with baggy jeans and an oversized t-shirt driving 60 mph in a Ferrari, what do you think his response is going to be? On a different note, if that male was Caucasian and dressed in nice attire, but driving the same vehicle and speed, it is likely the officer would assume the suspect is from a wealthy family and not take any action... This is all profiling.
    Last edited by Tubub; 07-31-09 at 10:58 PM.
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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    52% of Blacks and Non-White Hispanics testify to being discriminated by police
    Again, how do they know they're being treated differently than whites?

    The 57-year-old black barber from Spartanburg, S.C., believes the police stop, which did not result in a ticket or arrest, was motivated by his color -- a practice called racial profiling.
    Of course he believes that. Skip Gates believes it, too. I was stopped one time, because I was driving a red Peterbilt. An informant told US border patrol agents that a red Peterbilt was coming through Freer, Texas with several hundred kilos of cocaine. Should I have raised all kinds of hell because they were discriminating against red Peterbilts?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    52% of Blacks and Non-White Hispanics testify to being discriminated by police


    3/4 of young black men pulled over because they are black


    Now how are we going to refute this evidence? Racism? I am foreseeing you going against overwhelming evidence with your own unsubstantiated speculation.

    [NOTE: I know it for a fact because I have been around numerous people, including myself, that have racially profiled. People profile in a variety of ways... racial is not exluded just because it is politically taboo and arguably morally wrong.

    It is simple logic that a cop will be more suspicious of a certain background that is known to have large criminal percentage rates. If a cop sees a 19 year old African-American male, with baggy jeans and an oversized t-shirt driving 60 mph in a Ferrari, what do you think his response is going to be? On a different note, if that male was Caucasian and dressed in nice attire, but driving the same vehicle and speed, it is likely the officer would assume the suspect is from a wealthy family and not take any action... This is all profiling.


    If a cop sees a 19 year old African-American male, with baggy jeans and an oversized t-shirt driving 60 mph in a Ferrari, what do you think his response is going to be?
    That all depends. First off, there's no way to know that the 19 y/o black kid is wearing baggy jeans, if he's driving a car. Second, if he's doing 60 in a 40, then his ass is getting pulled over for doing 20 mph over the speed limit, just like a white boy would.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    52% of Blacks and Non-White Hispanics testify to being discriminated by police


    3/4 of young black men pulled over because they are black


    Now how are we going to refute this evidence? Racism? I am foreseeing you going against overwhelming evidence with your own unsubstantiated speculation.
    What evidence? You have a majority of blacks and non-white Hispanics testifying they personally were discriminated against by police, and significant percentages believing that police do not treat minorities as well as whites.

    Or do you?

    An important note: The sample size of blacks and non-white Hispanics in this survey is relatively small, and the margin of error for the subset is 10 percentage points. By contrast, the margin of error for whites and the total sample is three points.
    Additionally, how much credibility can we assign to a self-referential survey? Is the benchmark of determining discrimination simply the perception of the putatively discriminated?

    More than four out of 10 blacks of all ages and both genders said they believe they've been stopped because of their race, said the poll, part of Gallup's annual social audit of black-white relations.
    What is the potential for these statistics to be self-proving? If minorities "know" that police treat minorities differently, does that tinge their perceptions of their own interactions with the police, imparting perception of discrimination where perhaps otherwise there might be none?

    Lots of numbers and statistics, but you still haven't addressed the question: How does a person know they are being treated differently? Beyond the self-referential (and therefore extremely biased and subjective) perceptions of individuals, what are the empirical indicators of racial discrimination by police?

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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    It is simple logic that a cop will be more suspicious of a certain background that is known to have large criminal percentage rates. If a cop sees a 19 year old African-American male, with baggy jeans and an oversized t-shirt driving 60 mph in a Ferrari, what do you think his response is going to be? On a different note, if that male was Caucasian and dressed in nice attire, but driving the same vehicle and speed, it is likely the officer would assume the suspect is from a wealthy family and not take any action... This is all profiling.
    Simple logic, but flawed logic.

    Ferraris are not cheap, and the number of teenagers of any ethnicity legally driving one is likely to be very small--or is that age discrimination?

    Ferraris are not cheap, and those who can afford them certainly have the means to dress out at will: baggy jeans and an oversize T-shirt would look as much out of place in a Ferrari as flannel shirts and bib overalls--or is that discrimination based on attire?

    Additionally, baggy jeans and oversize shirts are not just worn by minorities.

    Thus your example is flawed, because there are several discernible aspects of the scenario which are not racially oriented yet could make the driver seem suspicious.

    Change your scenario to a young black professional decked out with a pastel polo shirt, leather jacket, Ray-ban sunglasses, and other fashion elements from the Sharper Image catalog, and you would have a more substantial argument.

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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Again, how do they know they're being treated differently than whites?
    I have never been in car that was pulled over without substantial rationale. For African-Americans, there seems to be a consensus that many have experienced being pulled over with little or no rationale.



    Of course he believes that. Skip Gates believes it, too. I was stopped one time, because I was driving a red Peterbilt. An informant told US border patrol agents that a red Peterbilt was coming through Freer, Texas with several hundred kilos of cocaine. Should I have raised all kinds of hell because they were discriminating against red Peterbilts?
    Did I ever say profiling was generally bad? I would say it is innate for a person to profile. All I said is that it could be frustrating for people that are discriminated against when it is not in their power to change what profile they are befitting...

    The color of a man's skin is a much different factor than the car he is driving.
    Last edited by Tubub; 08-01-09 at 12:08 AM.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    I have never been in car that was pulled over without substantial rationale. For African-Americans, there seems to be a consensus that many have experienced being pulled over with little or no rationale.
    By whose estimation? By what objective measure is there "little or no rationale"?

    Everything that you've cited here summarizes thus: If blacks and minorities perceive they are being discriminated against, they are being discriminated against. The putatively aggrieved individual has total credibility, and the police office enjoys zero credibility, but there is no rational support offered for either position.

    Again: What are the empirical indicators of racial discrimination?

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    Re: Colin Powell on Henry Gates: He should've Chilled Out

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    What evidence? You have a majority of blacks and non-white Hispanics testifying they personally were discriminated against by police, and significant percentages believing that police do not treat minorities as well as whites.

    Or do you?
    Testimony from personal experience is evidence.

    What is the potential for these statistics to be self-proving? If minorities "know" that police treat minorities differently, does that tinge their perceptions of their own interactions with the police, imparting perception of discrimination where perhaps otherwise there might be none?
    Partially true but also flawed. With those kinds of numbers, it is an extremely tenuous claim to say that all assumed they were being racially profiled before looking to other conclusions. Put it into perspective: If your driving in Compton(assuming you are Caucasian) and you are pulled over with no legitimate rationale except that your driving in Compton, it is likely because you are a white male driving in compton. An officer may be suspicious of such activity that is out of place, and it is more possible(again depending on different personal attributes) that you are going to Compton to engage in illicit activity... or your just lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    Lots of numbers and statistics, but you still haven't addressed the question: How does a person know they are being treated differently? Beyond the self-referential (and therefore extremely biased and subjective) perceptions of individuals, what are the empirical indicators of racial discrimination by police?
    That's assuming that somehow African-Americans think as a collective group. They don't. Being black is something you are born with, and bears absolutely nothing to who you are. So if a huge amount are agreeing that they have been treated unfairly in numerous polls(I can bring out more if you would like) than that speaks for itself.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
    -TR

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