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Thread: White cop tackles black mom after she called police for help[W:295]

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    Re: White cop tackles black mom after she called police for help[W:295]

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    the principle should be the same. The presumption should be that violence was not warranted, and the police should have to prove that it was. .
    I have to disagree.
    Since Officers are charged with enforcing the law the, if there is a presumption, it should be that they were acting correctly (doing their job) unless it can be shown otherwise.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: White cop tackles black mom after she called police for help[W:295]

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon
    I have to disagree.
    Since Officers are charged with enforcing the law the, if there is a presumption, it should be that they were acting correctly (doing their job) unless it can be shown otherwise.
    They would then be in a unique position in our society--every good supervisor I've ever known assumes their employees are not doing their job, and seeks evidence to the contrary.

    But aside from that, and more importantly, your view is the view taken by every dictatorship and tyranny in history--the assumption is that whatever violence is visited upon citizens, it was necessary, and up to the victims to prove otherwise. That is simply not how a free society works, or should work.

    See my first few posts in this thread for further argument on this issue.

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    Re: White cop tackles black mom after she called police for help[W:295]

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    They would then be in a unique position in our society--every good supervisor I've ever known assumes their employees are not doing their job, and seeks evidence to the contrary.

    But aside from that, and more importantly, your view is the view taken by every dictatorship and tyranny in history--the assumption is that whatever violence is visited upon citizens, it was necessary, and up to the victims to prove otherwise. That is simply not how a free society works, or should work.

    See my first few posts in this thread for further argument on this issue.
    No one said they shouldnt have supervision. But they are in a unique position, the people entrusted to use force and decide when to use it. And every good supervisor I know, trusts but verifies.

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    Re: White cop tackles black mom after she called police for help[W:295]

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5
    No one said they shouldnt have supervision. But they are in a unique position, the people entrusted to use force and decide when to use it. And every good supervisor I know, trusts but verifies.
    And here we see one problem with not doing split quotes: you've addressed the least important (and also weakest) point in my post, and left it at that.

    The real point is that if the presumption is that the police are always acting as they should, that's exactly how every tyranny in history has been run, and for obvious reasons.

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    Re: White cop tackles black mom after she called police for help[W:295]

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    And here we see one problem with not doing split quotes: you've addressed the least important (and also weakest) point in my post, and left it at that.

    The real point is that if the presumption is that the police are always acting as they should, that's exactly how every tyranny in history has been run, and for obvious reasons.
    Only if you use that one fact as the only reason there is tyranny. Correlation isnt causation.

    And dont worry about what i choose to address or not. Stick to the topic.

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    Re: White cop tackles black mom after she called police for help[W:295]

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5
    Only if you use that one fact as the only reason there is tyranny. Correlation isnt causation.
    A force being able to harm or kill a citizen under the presumption that it's always justified is more or less the (modern) definition of tyranny. So it's not correlation--that's an essential feature of tyranny, and when you have that kind of society, it's a tyrannical one.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5
    And dont worry about what i choose to address or not. Stick to the topic.
    If what you choose to leave out is part of the topic, obviously I'm sticking to the topic by observing you've left it out. So I have no idea what your point could be, here.

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    Re: White cop tackles black mom after she called police for help[W:295]

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    A force being able to harm or kill a citizen under the presumption that it's always justified is more or less the (modern) definition of tyranny. So it's not correlation--that's an essential feature of tyranny, and when you have that kind of society, it's a tyrannical one.
    Comment on how I post is not the topic. Since thats all we seem to be able to do here, Im moving on.

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    Re: White cop tackles black mom after she called police for help[W:295]

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    They would then be in a unique position in our society--every good supervisor I've ever known assumes their employees are not doing their job, and seeks evidence to the contrary.
    That is an absurdly weird argument to make because we are talking about work actually done in a fashion that it is supposed to be done in.
    So the predisposition of a review should be that it was done correctly unless it can be shown it has not.


    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    But aside from that, and more importantly, your view is the view taken by every dictatorship and tyranny in history--the assumption is that whatever violence is visited upon citizens, it was necessary, and up to the victims to prove otherwise. That is simply not how a free society works, or should work.
    iLOL No.
    The presumption is on the lawfulness of the actions of those enforcing the law.
    Under the view you speak of, that is where the review ceases.
    Under the review I speak of, the presumption stands unless unlawful action can be determined.


    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    See my first few posts in this thread for further argument on this issue.
    Don't need to.
    If you have a specific argument to make with me, make it.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
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    Re: White cop tackles black mom after she called police for help[W:295]

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon
    That is an absurdly weird argument to make because we are talking about work actually done in a fashion that it is supposed to be done in.
    Are we? I think we're talking about work done with no knowledge of whether it was done correctly or not. If you assume that the work was done correctly, you're begging the question, which is not a good way to argue, because it can lead to any conclusion at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon
    So the predisposition of a review should be that it was done correctly unless it can be shown it has not.
    Doesn't follow from the premises.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon
    The presumption is on the lawfulness of the actions of those enforcing the law.
    Under the view you speak of, that is where the review ceases.
    What does this mean--the view I speak of? The tyrannical view? Or the view I think is correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon
    Under the review I speak of, the presumption stands unless unlawful action can be determined.
    What presumption?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon
    Don't need to.
    If you have a specific argument to make with me, make it.
    If you cannot be bothered to click back a few steps to read something I've written, I question your sincerity. But I suppose I can also click back and copy and paste. Here's the substantive argument from post #225, which is leveled at you or anyone who takes your view:

    Suppose our justice system operated on the principle that someone who is accused of a crime is assumed to be guilty, and will only avoid sentencing by proving their innocence. That would be a really bad way to run the justice system. It would obviously be a bad way to run the justice system. As it is, the prosecutor must prove that the accused is guilty. And that is (again, obviously) how it should be. The reason for all this being so is also obvious: if we did it the other way 'round, it would allow government officials to persecute whoever they want for whatever reason they want, imprisoning or executing their critics or whoever might offend them. Moreover, citizens in such a society would clearly not be free, and rights would be either greatly reduced or non-existent. There has to be a good and worthy reason that a person's freedom and bodily well-being is curtailed by agents of the government (or of any powerful entity).

    Now, if the police can shoot, tackle, taze, stab, punch, or even detain citizens for no reason, or just on their word that said citizen was up to no good, the situation is very much the same as the one we avoid by the assumption of innocence. Clearly, someone who is shot to death suffers much the same fate, without due process, as someone who is executed. Someone who is injured suffers a punishment, as does someone who is detained.

    I agree that police have to be allowed to do their jobs, and from time to time, that may entail justly doing any of those things to someone. But when that happens (i.e. when it's just to shoot, taze, tackle, beat, or detain someone), it ought to be a trivial matter to prove that such action was necessary. The assumption ought to be that any such action is not warranted, and if it is warranted, in this day of dashcams, ubiquitous cell phone video, surveillance cams, and body cams, it ought to be easy to prove the warrant.

    My point, then, is about how we evaluate actions taken by the police. I'm pointing out that the assumptions too many people make are opposite of what they should be, for exactly the reasons outlined above.
    Last edited by ashurbanipal; 01-12-17 at 10:00 AM.

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    Re: White cop tackles black mom after she called police for help[W:295]

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    But aside from that, and more importantly, your view is the view taken by every dictatorship and tyranny in history--the assumption is that whatever violence is visited upon citizens, it was necessary, and up to the victims to prove otherwise. That is simply not how a free society works, or should work.
    The presumption is on the lawfulness of the actions of those enforcing the law.
    Under the view you speak of, that is where the review ceases.
    What does this mean--the view I speak of? The tyrannical view? Or the view I think is correct?


    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Under the review I speak of, the presumption stands unless unlawful action can be determined.
    What presumption?
    Which view did you express in what I quoted? Huh? Is it really that hard to be honest? You only spoke of one view where a review would not exist, and then falsely attributed it to me.
    Duh!

    What presumption?
    Do you not understand what we are discussing here? Do you really not understand I am speaking about the opposite presumption of the one you advocate?

    You bringing "dictatorship and tyranny" into this is absurd and dishonest because under such a construct there would be no review.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
    (≚ᄌ≚)

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