Trump says he would require schools to teach patriotism

Hawkeye10 said:

Maybe just maybe what he says and what his supporters hear is not the same thing you think he is saying. Listen to him as if he were a woman, if you know what I mean and you can do it then you will get Trump. If you get Trump and you understand the reality of America circa 2016 then you will understand everything.

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We've already seen how what he says and what his supporters hear aren't the same thing.

Born Free said:

No they are not defecting in masses, but if Trump wins the election, all of Hollywood has promised to leave this country and live elsewhere. I can't wait.

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Actually, Hollywood creates American jobs. I thought you would favor that.

Deuce said:

Should we ignore the whole slavery thing when teaching history?

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No, we should teach that the slaves were treated wonderfully and brought over to share America's greatness with black people. A greatness they share in today!

/sarcasm generator off

rocket88 said:

We've already seen how what he says and what his supporters hear aren't the same thing.

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Either that or how what he says and what his detractors hear aren't the same thing, but yes, the breakdown of communication is significant, and it should concern you.

Hawkeye10 said:

Either that or how what he says and what his detractors hear aren't the same thing, but yes, the breakdown of communication is significant, and it should concern you.

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Actually, what Trump says and what he does are 2 different things. I judge Trump, not by what he says, but by what he does. This is why I do not, or will ever, support him.

danarhea said:

Actually, what Trump says and what he does are 2 different things. I judge Trump, not by what he says, but by what he does. This is why I do not, or will ever, support him.

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Well then.

When I pay attention to what he does I am very impressed.

The family, the brand, the constantly working, the always trying to win, the enjoying slumming it with lower class individuals.

danarhea said:

Patriotism doesn't mean blind obedience. It means standing up for the Constitution. It doesn't mean rewriting history to gloss over the bad chapters. It means loving your country enough to recognize when we as a nation have done wrong and try not to do it again. It doesn't mean only reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. It's living the Pledge, especially the "Liberty and Justice for all" part of it. In that context, patriotism is a very good thing. Taken too far, it becomes the kind of Fascism that was promoted by Adolf Hitler. Yes, there is a line, and it must never be crossed, for when it is, then patriotism becomes hollow, and not worth the empty words being parroted. When that happens, you are no longer patriotic, but have betrayed the very principles that are the reasons for patriotism in the first place.

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Overall I very much agree. But two thoughts:

1.) What does "teach patriotism" even mean? Do the students all get up and "Boo!" pictures of Kaepernick? How do you read someone a lesson in patriotism?

2.) These people have no interest in actual patriotism. Like you say, they don't want to carry on the tradition (which means also modifying the tradition to make it better from time to time) of our Constitution. They want self-reaffirming nativism. The Constitution is an aetherial document to these people, like the Bible. They have only read it probably a handful of times, and what "being a good American" means standing at sporting events, bitching about taxes, and slapping "Support Our Troops" bumper stickers after voting in politicians who cut veterans benefits.

Hawkeye10 said:

Well then.

When I pay attention to what he does I am very impressed.

The family, the brand, the constantly working, the always trying to win, the enjoying slumming it with lower class individuals.

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Does it also impress you when he uses contractors who hire illegal immigrants, doesn't pay his employees, and causes business after business to fail, all through his incompetent management?

Hawkeye10 said:

Well then.

When I pay attention to what he does I am very impressed.

The family,

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Five children from three different wives, running for office in the party of traditional family values. Imagine the right-wing outrage if Hillary Clinton had shown up on stage to accept a nomination with five children from three babydaddys.

the brand,

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Yes, he's good at marketing. Not always so good at picking what he should try and sell, though. (see: airline, football league, vodka, mortgage company, a frigging board game...

the constantly working,

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Not exactly unique.

the always trying to win

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...as opposed to trying to lose? Man, you're just spitting out the description fed to you by the man himself. "I'm always winning! Trust me I win a lot! WINNING!"

, the enjoying slumming it with lower class individuals.

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The man sits on a literal golden throne atop a golden tower that has his name on it in giant golden letters.

On which planet does he "slum it" for anything other than a photo op?

Hawkeye10 said:

Either that or how what he says and what his detractors hear aren't the same thing, but yes, the breakdown of communication is significant, and it should concern you.

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There is a concerning cognitive disconnect in his supporters, you are right. I'm sure you didn't intend that.

Developing a sense of nationalism or state exceptionalism has been a basic duty of American public education since the early to mid 19th century, and has been a viable force in pedagogy since the ancients.

The problem is I would never want Trump's hands on it. He tends to ruin everything, even the potentially useful through his words alone.

rocket88 said:

No, we should teach that the slaves were treated wonderfully and brought over to share America's greatness with black people. A greatness they share in today!

/sarcasm generator off

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I can see it now "Slave Lives Matter!".

FieldTheorist said:

Overall I very much agree. But two thoughts:

1.) What does "teach patriotism" even mean? Do the students all get up and "Boo!" pictures of Kaepernick? How do you read someone a lesson in patriotism?

2.) These people have no interest in actual patriotism. Like you say, they don't want to carry on the tradition (which means also modifying the tradition to make it better from time to time) of our Constitution. They want self-reaffirming nativism. The Constitution is an aetherial document to these people, like the Bible. They have only read it probably a handful of times, and what "being a good American" means standing at sporting events, bitching about taxes, and slapping "Support Our Troops" bumper stickers after voting in politicians who cut veterans benefits.

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I'm sure he'll be looking for volunteers to write the curriculum.

Gaztopian said:

The nations that teach patriotism are the nations that are devoid of it; why else would they feel insecure about it? The act stems from a perception that there's a shortage that needs to be supplemented. More importantly, patriotism isn't something that can be taught. It's an organic construct that draws from real life processes. If the U.S actually lacks in patriotism, it better looks inside instead of musing such juvenile proposals.

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We try to teach virtues and nationalism to the public in order to ensure that the intrinsic true believers aren't the only ones who follow the precepts. Man needs instruction to be a better man, and that includes the need for instruction in the uniqueness and success of his State. Further, Americans are in a country which relies on a national ideological identity to a much greater extent than most other Western nations. We are an immigrant's state. Our diversity is much, much greater than, say, France. Unity, then, is a highly desired commodity; but it must be taught. The public school, from elementary schools in the 19th century to high schools in the early 20th century, was specifically designed to create a unified American nation in the midst of great ethnic and generational diversity. Teaching "patriotism," (or rather, nationalism) is one of the public school's greatest contributions to American society.

Hawkeye10 said:

Maybe just maybe what he says and what his supporters hear is not the same thing you think he is saying. Listen to him as if he were a woman, if you know what I mean and you can do it then you will get Trump.

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You really need to cut back. You're musings are becoming incoherent.

Hawkeye10 said:

Well then.

When I pay attention to what he does I am very impressed.

The family, the brand, the constantly working, the always trying to win, the enjoying slumming it with lower class individuals.

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Lol. Anyone we know?

TheGoverness said:

So basically Trump wants schools to teach a rose-colored glasses view of America, and have everyone express blind obedience to the country.

Great. How very patriotic.

If Trump can criticize America for it's faults, then everyone else should be able to do the same. It's a free country after all, is it not? This isn't Panem.

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That's what Trump's campaign is saying it wants, and to varying degrees, many social conservatives do as well. The issue is that a lot of conservatives aren't that intellectually nuanced to understand that even the so-called "multiculturalist education" movement (which, in many ways, actually neutered itself by being more traditionally pluralistic in implementation) can fit that bill of being patriotic. Let's take a look at Trump's statement.

“We will stop apologizing for America, and we will start celebrating America,” he said. “We will be united by our common cultures, values, and principles, becoming one American nation, one country under the one constitution, saluting one American flag—always saluting.”

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In most common expressions and implementations of American multiculturalist education, there is indeed a great deal of "apologizing for America," but it serves a nationalist purpose all the same.

Traditionally, Jeffersonian-Jacksonian Americanism kind of proposed that there was, more or less, a perfection of the American nation upon its intellectual founding. While the Jacksonians greatly increased the number of citizen voters in the country in comparison with the Founding era, there was still this feeling that the late 1780s "nailed it." Multiculturalist education, on the other hand, rejects that historiographical interpretation in favor of another narrative. That other narrative is that while the ideas and values, on paper, were fantastic, the reality was dramatically less than desired. While the traditional narrative argued that America's founding was essentially "the end" of its historical progress, the multiculturalist narrative argues that American history is the story of greater and greater segments of society attempting to hold their own country to the ideological standards espoused in America's primary founding documents (the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights). One argues that history has more or less ended, the other stresses the significant need for ongoing perfectibility. Both, however, preach what Trump wants: "common cultures, values, and principles," "one nation," and "saluting the American flag."

How so very Palinesque of him.

Top Cat said:

You really need to cut back. You're musings are becoming incoherent.

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You should know that I tend to look at things slightly off kilter. It is super enlightening, and not born of drink or smoke, but rather me making a conscious effort to try too see America as an outsider might.

Like De Tocqueville.

Hawkeye10 said:

You should know that I tend to look at things slightly off kilter. It is super enlightening, and not born of drink or smoke, but rather me making a conscious effort to try too see America as an outsider might.

Like De Tocqueville.

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Tocqueville was often a great deal harsher in his criticism of America than many Americans are (even still) wanting to deliver today. Forgive me if I have a difficult time thinking you're willing to critique democracy as Tocqueville might.

rocket88 said:

There is a concerning cognitive disconnect in his supporters, you are right. I'm sure you didn't intend that.

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Who is wrong and why, who is responsible for the communication breaking down, for the project of sensing reality breaking down, is a super important topic. I dont see enough pondering of this either at DP or in the national discourse. What I see are people garbing onto their often lightly considered opinions and running with them as if they are established truth. THis is something that we moderns do all the time. It is damn depressing, everyone keeps talking past each other, with damn few wise folks such as me disturbed by this example of societal breakdown to be found anywhere. Even At DP.

Hawkeye10 said:

You should know that I tend to look at things slightly off kilter. It is super enlightening, and not born of drink or smoke, but rather me making a conscious effort to try too see America as an outsider might.

Like De Tocqueville.

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It's called buying your own bull****.

Top Cat said:

It's called buying your own bull****.

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This coming from the guy who thinks I have been right exactly once in 7,000 posts.....right?

From the guy who is seeming obsessed with one HAWkEYE10.

I'll take the opinion for what it is worth.

rocket88 said:

Actually, Hollywood creates American jobs. I thought you would favor that.

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All they have to do is call the Illegal Labor Union and they will fill the jobs no problem at a much cheaper rate

Fiddytree said:

Tocqueville was often a great deal harsher in his criticism of America than many Americans are (even still) wanting to deliver today. Forgive me if I have a difficult time thinking you're willing to critique democracy as Tocqueville might.

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Me, the guy who looks at the DC Cesspool and yells "BURN IT TO THE GROUND!" The one who thinks both parties need to die. THe one who says that we should vote out every single person till we get a group of them who understand that their orders are to work together to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN.