• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Former Miss Alabama Suspended Calling Dallas Sniper a ‘Martyr’

Lutherf said:
While she's free to express her opinion her employer should be equally free to sever ties with her if they believe that her publicly expressed opinions might damage their brand and business.
Click to expand...

Where are all the right wingers with their bogus 'First Amendment' arguments? I guess that only applies when they can couple it with a 'political correctness' complaint. The woman is an idiot and deserves to be fired.
 
radcen said:
But that's kinda my point. Freedom of speech is only valid relating to government. But if we're only willing to honor the concept in those limited circumstances, then do we honestly believe in the concept at all?

I say 'no', we don't. We're just kidding ourselves.
Click to expand...

Actions have consequences. Including verbal actions. Sometimes the consequences are good, sometimes they aren't. Only the government has the power to harm us unjustly by seizing us and oppressing our freedom and liberty. Private citizens that harm us unjustly can be either charged with a crime or sued civilly, yet they do not have the power to seize or oppress our freedom or liberty. An employer can terminate your employment if you act in a way they deem harmful to them. Other people have the right to free speech just as you do, so they can question, criticize, and/or embarrass you for making idiotic, baseless, or unfounded statements.

We do have freedom of speech. We do not have freedom from private sector ridicule or private sector consequences for ignorant speech.
 
Winchester said:
Kind of hard to fault her too much for being honest about how she feels and saying it even though she knew there would be repercussions. It gives us a little insight to how others see this.
Click to expand...

The world is her psychologist.
 
BrewerBob said:
So, I was all ready to condemn her but then I went and watched the video. While she says she feels that way she feels guilty for feeling that way, knows it is wrong to feel that way, and doesn't WANT to feel that way. And seems pretty distraught over her lack of sympathy. That is a level of introspection most people don't have. It is hard for me to be too upset with her.
Click to expand...

Hopefully a loss of gainful employment will open her heart to sanity.
 
Wiggen said:
Where are all the right wingers with their bogus 'First Amendment' arguments? I guess that only applies when they can couple it with a 'political correctness' complaint. The woman is an idiot and deserves to be fired.
Click to expand...

If the government had done something to her, then you'd hear from a bunch of people with 'First Amendment' arguments. However, you've targeted the wrong side for a 'political correctness' complaint, given that she spoke her mind in a rather politically incorrect way. The only point I've been making in that regard is that if she didn't want to have a private sector consequence for her words, she should have thought twice before she said anything in a public forum. Other than that, she's free to say what she wants, and her employer is free to sever ties with her if they feel her words could harm their standing in the community.
 
Beaudreaux said:
Actions have consequences. Including verbal actions. Sometimes the consequences are good, sometimes they aren't. Only the government has the power to harm us unjustly by seizing us and oppressing our freedom and liberty. Private citizens that harm us unjustly can be either charged with a crime or sued civilly, yet they do not have the power to seize or oppress our freedom or liberty. An employer can terminate your employment if you act in a way they deem harmful to them. Other people have the right to free speech just as you do, so they can question, criticize, and/or embarrass you for making idiotic, baseless, or unfounded statements.

We do have freedom of speech. We do not have freedom from private sector ridicule or private sector consequences for ignorant speech.
Click to expand...
Completely disagree with the part in red. That statement presumes that private decisions/consequences are always just. Simply because someone can do something to you does not mean that their actions are just.
 
What a stupid person, there is nothing "martyr" about this shooter, this was a coldblooded piece of scum murderer, nothing more and nothing less.
 
thinking something is fine....

if she had just left those thoughts in her head, she would still be employed

when you "express" your thoughts publicly, especially when you put them on the internet where the whole world can then see and hear them, then you open yourself up to all sorts of issues

some may agree, many may disagree....

her job apparently found those thoughts and her words to be something they didnt want to associate with

anyone can stand on a soapbox nowadays, and yell to their hearts content

you just have to be willing to pay the price for those words
 
BrewerBob said:
And as for martyr? I never really viewed the word as having a moral conotation. A martyr is just someone who gives their life for a cause. The cause can be just or unjust.
Click to expand...

No that is not what a martyr is. That may be the perverted way it's looked at in Islam, and maybe some other groups, but a martyr is not simply someone who gives their life for a cause. A martyr is someone who is killed for their beliefs. The shooter in Dallas wasn't killed for his beliefs, he was killed for being a murderer and being an active combatant.
 
BrewerBob said:
But how do you change how you feel or don't feel? All you can do is examine your feelings and perhaps talk about it. She is specifically asking help from others in how they have dealt with such things. I'm not sure what else she can do, other than bottle it up or lie about it, which certainly isn't going to help her be the person she is trying to be.
Click to expand...

You keep that **** to yourself, or share it with a professional psychiatrist or close friend or something, while you're being introspective. What you don't do is promulgate a message that you know is wrong, dangerous, and harmful. All that does is add to the problem you've already identified.
 
radcen said:
It is you that doesn't know what a martyr is. Or, did you miss the reports of who he was narrowly targeting and why?

You post the definition, and still missed it.
Click to expand...

Nope. You're another person that doesn't understand what a martyr is. See post #60.
 
DA60 said:
And I will ask you again...was Jeffery Dahmer a martyr for cannibalism? Was Timothy McVeigh a martyr for blowing up federal buildings? And are rapists who then murder their victims martyrs for rape? What about the Sandy Hook killer? The Columbine murders? The Virginia Tech shootings?

Did they all have causes and were martyr's in your book?
Click to expand...
Even after you post TWO definitions... and you posted them, not anyone else... you still don't know what a martyr is, do you? That's friggin' hilarious! By your standards, you are clearly a 'martyr' for illiteracy. :lol:

I've already said this once, but I will say it again: All that is required is a reason / motive. You don't have to approve of said reason / motive for it to be a cause. In fact, there is no cause anywhere in the world that will win approval from everybody. Not one. But almost any cause will have approval from somebody. That qualifies the person who died a martyr... to them.

And I will state this very clearly (though I suspect you will choose to be willfully obtuse anyway): I do NOT approve of his actions. He is not my martyr. However, per the definitions that YOU provided, there are some people who do approve, so he is a martyr to them. Your mother was wrong, it's not all about you.

The "cause" of cannibalism? Seriously? :lamo
 
Last edited:
radcen said:
Even after you post TWO definitions... and you posted them, not anyone else... you still don't know what a martyr is, do you? That's friggin' hilarious! By your standards, you are clearly a martyr for illiteracy. :lol:

I've already said this once, but I will say it again: All that is required is a reason / motive. You don't have to approve of said reason / motive for it to be a cause. In fact, there is no cause anywhere in the world that will win approval from everybody. Not one. But almost any cause will have approval from somebody. That qualifies the person died a martyr... to them.

And I will state this very clearly (though I suspect you will choose to be willfully obtuse anyway): I do NOT approve of his actions. He is not my martyr. However, per the definitions that YOU provided, there are some people who do approve, so he is a martyr to them. Your mother was wrong, it's not all about you.

The "cause" of cannibalism? Seriously? :lamo
Click to expand...
And I am saying you do not understand the definitions I have provided. And obviously cannibalism was a joke...duh.

And I will ask you again...was Timothy McVeigh a martyr for blowing up federal buildings? What about the Sandy Hook killer? The Columbine murderers? The Aurora killer? The Virginia Tech shooter?

WERE THEY MARTYRS, in your opinion...YES OR NO, PLEASE?

Simple questions...yet you refuse to answer.
 
Last edited:
BrewerBob said:
So, I was all ready to condemn her but then I went and watched the video. While she says she feels that way she feels guilty for feeling that way, knows it is wrong to feel that way, and doesn't WANT to feel that way. And seems pretty distraught over her lack of sympathy. That is a level of introspection most people don't have. It is hard for me to be too upset with her.
Click to expand...

I think you need to try harder.
 
DA60 said:
Obviously cannibalism was a joke...duh.

And I will ask you again...was Timothy McVeigh a martyr for blowing up federal buildings? And are rapists who then murder their victims martyrs for rape? What about the Sandy Hook killer? The Columbine murders? The Virginia Tech shootings?

WERE THEY MARTYRS TO YOU...YES OR NO, PLEASE?

Did they all have causes and were martyr's in your book?

Simple questions...yet you refuse to answer.
Click to expand...
They are all irrelevant to the basic and non-topic specific definition of martyr. 100% irrelevant. But, to make you happy, I will gladly answer each one... as soon as you accept the dictionary definitions you yourself posted.

Really, why post something as a definitive source if all you're going to do is dispute your own source, is baffling.
 
radcen said:
They are all irrelevant to the basic and non-topic specific definition of martyr. 100% irrelevant. But, to make you happy, I will gladly answer each one... as soon as you accept the dictionary definitions you yourself posted.

Really, why post something as a definitive source if all you're going to do is dispute your own source, is baffling.
Click to expand...

So you will not answer the questions.

Noted.

Then obviously to do so would put your argument into a negative light otherwise you obviously would answer these simple questions. You go on and on about whatever and yet you refuse to even answer a few questions with simple, one word (heck - even one letter) answers that you say you would be happy to answer. Suuuuure.



Let me know when you are emotionally able to answer these INCREDIBLY simple questions (which I am guessing is 'never').

Until then, further discussion with you is pointless on this issue if you are not even capable of answering questions that you yourself claim would make you 'happy' to do so.

:roll:


Good day.


BTW, here is one last definition for you:

'troll
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument'

Urban Dictionary: troll

I will try and keep it in mind when dealing with you again.
 
Last edited:
Fishking said:
No that is not what a martyr is. That may be the perverted way it's looked at in Islam, and maybe some other groups, but a martyr is not simply someone who gives their life for a cause. A martyr is someone who is killed for their beliefs. The shooter in Dallas wasn't killed for his beliefs, he was killed for being a murderer and being an active combatant.
Click to expand...

Actually, there are multiple definitions of the word martyr, including its use as a transitive verb:
1
: to put to death for adhering to a belief, faith, or profession

2
: to inflict agonizing pain on : torture

However, the way in which Miss Alabama used the word implies a noun: He was a martyr. In that case your definition is correct.

noun:

: a person who is killed or who suffers greatly for a religion, cause, etc.

: a person who pretends to suffer or who exaggerates suffering in order to get praise or sympathy

: a person who suffers greatly from something (such as an illness)

Martyr | Definition of Martyr by Merriam-Webster

And as you pointed out she used the word incorrectly, and got suspended for it.

It seems she confused the definitions of "martyr" and "cold - blooded," a huge mistake on her part.
 
Last edited:
Glen Contrarian said:
Of course not. One black person does not speak for all black people, or even a significant percentage of them.

I do wish that y'all would realize that.
Click to expand...

Where did anyone claim that one black person DOES speak for all black people???

You just made up your own strawman so you could then respond in a self righteous manner.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Forms must be filled, in triplicate, with a blue pen.
Click to expand...

You must also use a form DA60 to file this.

(Some may actually get the joke, many Army forms are coded DA##, or DD##, for Department of Army or Department of Defense forms)
 
Beaudreaux said:
The outcome is the key. She didn't change her thinking or feelings or beliefs. She just feels bad about it.

Plus, you don't publically air your innermost psychological struggles.

In the south, we have a saying that fits here very well - "Damn buddy, I don't believe I'd-a tol' 'at one!?!?"
Click to expand...

Change takes time. As for the going public, that is a fair point.
 
DA60 said:
So you will not answer the questions.

Noted.

Then obviously to do so would put your argument into a negative light otherwise you obviously would answer these simple questions. You go on and on about whatever and yet you refuse to even answer a few questions with simple, one word (heck - even one letter) answers that you say you would be happy to answer. Suuuuure.



Let me know when you are emotionally able to answer these INCREDIBLY simple questions (which I am guessing is 'never').

Until then, further discussion with you is pointless on this issue if you are not even capable of answering questions that you yourself claim would make you 'happy' to do so.

:roll:


Good day.


BTW, here is one last definition for you:

'troll
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument'

Urban Dictionary: troll

I will try and keep it in mind when dealing with you again.
Click to expand...
Dude, we can't even get past your original mistake. You don't get to jumped beyond that and demand distracting questions. I was actually being quite nice in agreeing to play along with your absurdity, and am still willing to do so, but this needs to be solved first.

Below are your two original dictionary definitions posts (again). Please point to the specific verbiage that says martyrdom must be something that you approve of. Go ahead. Highlight the precise wording.

You have one year. Go!
DA60 said:
Well...she does not even seem to know what a martyr is.

'Simple Definition of martyr
: a person who is killed or who suffers greatly for a religion, cause, etc.

Martyr | Definition of Martyr by Merriam-Webster

He did not die for a cause. He died because he was killing people and the police had to stop him...totally different reasons.

Clearly, he just killed out of hate...not because of some higher reason.
Click to expand...

DA60 said:
'Full Definition of cause
1
a : a reason for an action or condition : motive
b : something that brings about an effect or a result
c : a person or thing that is the occasion of an action or state; especially : an agent that brings something about
d : sufficient reason <discharged for cause>
2
a : a ground of legal action
b : case
3
: a matter or question to be decided
4
a : a principle or movement militantly defended or supported

Cause | Definition of Cause by Merriam-Webster


Let me get this straight?

You think someone who is a sick mass murderer, whose only motivation to kill is hatred of a particular group of people - whom he did not know; killed because he had a principle and is a martyr?

Yes or no, please?


I say DEFINITELY 'NO" to both points. He had no cause and he was no martyr. He was just a hate-filled, sick mass murderer...by definition.


And I will ask you again...was Jeffery Dahmer a martyr for cannibalism? Was Timothy McVeigh a martyr for blowing up federal buildings? And are rapists who then murder their victims martyrs for rape?

Would you call any of them martyrs?


I would not...DEFINITELY.

Imo, you insult those who suffered under these people by calling the criminals who carried out these horrific acts 'martyrs'.
And you insult true martyrs like Martin Luther King Jr. and others who truly had a cause and who died defending it.

The definition backs up what I say...this sick **** was NO martyr and he had no cause. He had a purpose..but NO CAUSE. And his purpose was to murder out of insanity-based hatred.
Click to expand...
 
Fishking said:
No that is not what a martyr is. That may be the perverted way it's looked at in Islam, and maybe some other groups, but a martyr is not simply someone who gives their life for a cause. A martyr is someone who is killed for their beliefs. The shooter in Dallas wasn't killed for his beliefs, he was killed for being a murderer and being an active combatant.
Click to expand...

I just looked it up and you are right. I stand corrected on the definition.
 
BrewerBob said:
I just looked it up and you are right. I stand corrected on the definition.
Click to expand...
Where did you look it up? If the Dallas shooter was killed while, and because, he was acting on his beliefs, that would be the same thing. He wasn't killed randomly for no reason at all, and he was shooting/killing due to his beliefs. He wasn't killing people randomly and for no reason, either. In fact, he was very narrowly focused on who he was trying to kill... only those he believed were against him.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom