Trump doesn't own most of the 'Trump' products he bragged about this week

cpwill · Mar 11, 2016

Harry Guerrilla said:
I never asked you to change any of your positions nor stand with Trump, the R party or any of that.
I asked that you accept, that you can't change the outcome of this.

I have never claimed the magical power to change the course of the election. I have my immediate circle of friends, some of whom I can influence, some of whom I can't. This is a strawman.

He keeps winning.

....which is not at all an answer to my point. Your argument that he is popular remains - mathematically - wildly off mark.

Nor does he "keep winning". He wins in most places, and loses in some places, because he has faced no headwinds until recently, and opposition is split amount multiple candidates. He has not ever received a majority of the vote, and will not get a majority support.

Sure he has.

No, he hasn't.

It just doesn't work, not really.

Actually once they started hitting him with negative ads, it did work.

A contested convention will bury the R party for a while.

No, a Trump administration will bury the R party for a decade, if not more (think the Democrats aren't loving the fact that they are about to lock Hispanics into their corner as solidly as African Americans are?). A Trump candidacy will do so for at least a presidential cycle (4 years). A contested convention A) very plausibly if not likely going to happen at this point (this is the point at which you would tell me to "embrace it") and B) would split the party for a single election cycle (2 years).

No I didn't.
I saw all of them.

Not impressed in the least little bit.

If you think that Bobby Jindal is as vacuous, that Marco Rubio is as uninformed, that Ted Cruz is just as undedicated to his political principles, and that Jeb Bush is just as vulgar and crude as Trump, then I don't know what to say to help you, man.

Harry Guerrilla · Mar 11, 2016

cpwill said:
I have never claimed the magical power to change the course of the election. I have my immediate circle of friends, some of whom I can influence, some of whom I can't. This is a strawman.

Ok, then why all the Trump posts?
Why?
It's nearly spam like.

cpwill said:
....which is not at all an answer to my point. Your argument that he is popular remains - mathematically - wildly off mark.

Nor does he "keep winning". He wins in most places, and loses in some places, because he has faced no headwinds until recently, and opposition is split amount multiple candidates. He has not ever received a majority of the vote, and will not get a majority support.

In my opinion, it's too late.
They failed to act early enough and it's rolling on.

cpwill said:
No, he hasn't.

I see these stories.
Attacking him from every angle imaginable.
From the credible to the petty.
That to me, is negative press.

cpwill said:
Actually once they started hitting him with negative ads, it did work.

Negative political ads.
I think your sample size is too small.

cpwill said:
No, a Trump administration will bury the R party for a decade, if not more (think the Democrats aren't loving the fact that they are about to lock Hispanics into their corner as solidly as African Americans are?). A Trump candidacy will do so for at least a presidential cycle (4 years). A contested convention A) very plausibly if not likely going to happen at this point (this is the point at which you would tell me to "embrace it") and B) would split the party for a single election cycle (2 years).

I think he's likely to move to the center, just like the rest.
If you dump him for someone else, even after he wins the most delegates, it will cause a revolt of sorts.
It doesn't matter if the rules allow it, people don't care about that much.

cpwill said:
If you think that Bobby Jindal is as vacuous, that Marco Rubio is as uninformed, that Ted Cruz is just as undedicated to his political principles, and that Jeb Bush is just as vulgar and crude as Trump, then I don't know what to say to help you, man.

I do find them all vacuous and phony.
Sorry, they say all the things their base wants to hear.
That's not good leadership.

Peter King · Mar 11, 2016

fmw said:
Since these businesses are private, where did the OP get the inside information about who owns how much stock in them? Is it just a guess because one of them has the name of Trump's son on it? I'm not criticizing. I'm asking. Are there real facts or is someone simply inspired by a blog?

Other than the words of the winery itself? Other than the fact that some of the enterprises that Romney mentioned actually went bankrupt (like the beef, the magazine, the university) actually went belly up?

cpwill · Mar 11, 2016

Harry Guerrilla said:
Ok, then why all the Trump posts?
Why?

...because that's the major, major, huge story in the GOP primary, which I and the rest of the country are following very closely? Because it's what I care about?

In my opinion, it's too late.
They failed to act early enough and it's rolling on.

:shrug:

we'll see. They didn't help last night, where they went back to not hitting him (because that worked so great back in November) prior to some critical states. Trump's path to 1,237, however, is narrowing, and a contested convention is becoming more likely, if it is not already likely.

I accept, however, your implicit admission that you were incorrect when you argued that he was popular.

I see these stories.
Attacking him from every angle imaginable.
From the credible to the petty.
That to me, is negative press.

You See These Stories....

....no. Trump has been given more interviews than every other candidate combined, more air time than every other candidate combined, and you are mistaking "negative" press for "stray voltage" press. Stories about "my goodness, can you believe Donald Trump said this outlandish thing" aren't negative press - they are helpful press, because it gets people to defend him.

Negative political ads.
I think your sample size is too small.

:shrug: the only time that Trump has ever faced an actual campaign of criticism based on his record, it hurt him.

I think he's likely to move to the center, just like the rest.

How? Is he going to become more conservative?

If you dump him for someone else, even after he wins the most delegates, it will cause a revolt of sorts.
It doesn't matter if the rules allow it, people don't care about that much.

Maybe. I think that (though he's not my guy) Cruz could unite the Republicans who don't want a nutjob, and the Trump fans who don't want an insider. You have to have a majority support of the GOP, as represented by the delegates at the convention. The first person who gets to that threshold is the winner. :shrug: that's it.

But if there's a revolt, and the Trump fans walk out? :shrug: Okay. I'm more than willing to accept that cost. I'd be relieved, not upset. The last thing I want to spend the next decade doing is trying to find ways to disassociate the GOP from white nationalists.

I do find them all vacuous and phony.
Sorry, they say all the things their base wants to hear.
That's not good leadership.

Yeah. If there is one thing that people in Iowa want to hear, it's "I'm going to end ethanol subsidies". If there is one thing that Florida is a natural constituency for, it's "we need to reduce spending on Medicare and Social Security". :roll:

Harry Guerrilla · Mar 11, 2016

cpwill said:
...because that's the major, major, huge story in the GOP primary, which I and the rest of the country are following very closely? Because it's what I care about?

It is, but posting stuff, the stray voltage, you call it, doesn't do anything.

cpwill said:
:shrug:

we'll see. They didn't help last night, where they went back to not hitting him (because that worked so great back in November) prior to some critical states. Trump's path to 1,237, however, is narrowing, and a contested convention is becoming more likely, if it is not already likely.

I accept, however, your implicit admission that you were incorrect when you argued that he was popular.

He is popular.
Otherwise he wouldn't be leading with delegates.

cpwill said:
You See These Stories....

....no. Trump has been given more interviews than every other candidate combined, more air time than every other candidate combined, and you are mistaking "negative" press for "stray voltage" press. Stories about "my goodness, can you believe Donald Trump said this outlandish thing" aren't negative press - they are helpful press, because it gets people to defend him.

That's still negative information.
It's constant but you're right, people defend him.
Sometimes, the stuff is so petty I defend him.

cpwill said:
:shrug: the only time that Trump has ever faced an actual campaign of criticism based on his record, it hurt him.

I disagree, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

cpwill said:
How? Is he going to become more conservative?

Possibly.
He'll likely be a moderate.
Not overtly right or left.

cpwill said:
Maybe. I think that (though he's not my guy) Cruz could unite the Republicans who don't want a nutjob, and the Trump fans who don't want an insider. You have to have a majority support of the GOP, as represented by the delegates at the convention. The first person who gets to that threshold is the winner. :shrug: that's it.

But if there's a revolt, and the Trump fans walk out? :shrug: Okay. I'm more than willing to accept that cost. I'd be relieved, not upset. The last thing I want to spend the next decade doing is trying to find ways to disassociate the GOP from white nationalists.

Cruz comes off as an insider.
It doesn't matter if he is or isn't.

He appears as such.
Trump supporters /= white nationalist.

cpwill said:
Yeah. If there is one thing that people in Iowa want to hear, it's "I'm going to end ethanol subsidies". If there is one thing that Florida is a natural constituency for, it's "we need to reduce spending on Medicare and Social Security". :roll:

Winning is more important than doing right.
That's what I'm getting from you on this.

bg85 · Mar 11, 2016

American said:
you can't prove I support him

lol.

"You support trump!"

"You can't prove that!"

sounds like you just committed a crime or something and are being advised by your lawyer to take the fifth.

cpwill · Mar 11, 2016

Harry Guerrilla said:
It is, but posting stuff, the stray voltage, you call it, doesn't do anything.

:shrug: if you want to shrink into ennui, then don't come here. I come here to debate politics. It's in the name.

He is popular.
Otherwise he wouldn't be leading with delegates.

Again, mathematically, this is incorrect. His opposition is split between multiple candidates, which is why he can win delegates with a minority of the votes.

That's still negative information.
It's constant but you're right, people defend him.

Exactly. That's why it's not negative - it solidifies his core, and gives him the ability to do things like win delegates with 35% of the vote.

I disagree, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

You can disagree if you like on the assessment that it will work again in the future, but at this point, that's not an assessment, it's a data point. When (and again, I'm not his guy) Cruz pointed out the difference between early and day-of voting in Louisiana, he was pointing to the perfect example of what has been going on all race with the late-deciders. When people are exposed to Trump's record and he gets hit, he loses support.

Possibly.
He'll likely be a moderate.
Not overtly right or left.

:shrug: he is a lifelong liberal. I see no reason why, once he is done conning his base, he would continue to pretend to be anything else. Hell, he's already started admitting he intends to switch on his core issues.

Cruz comes off as an insider.
It doesn't matter if he is or isn't.

No, Rubio comes off as an insider, because he's backed by insiders, and because he hasn't been hostile to the GOP the way that Cruz has.

He appears as such.
Trump supporters /= white nationalist.

White Nationalists make up the most fervent core of Trump's support. The data point that most strongly correlates with where Trump voters live is google searches for the N Word.

Not all Trump supporters are white nationalists. But all white nationalists are Trump supporters, and if you don't think the Democrats are going to have a gleeful time sticking that to us from here until 2060, you haven't been paying attention to the effects of their use of the "Southern Strategy" claims with African Americans.

Winning is more important than doing right.
That's what I'm getting from you on this.

Then you need to go back and read it. I responded to your claim that they were all just saying whatever their audience wanted to hear by pointing to major times when two of them (Cruz and Rubio) had directly confronted the audience whose votes they were seeking with what they wanted to hear least.

If I was thought that winning was more important than doing right, I wouldn't be a Rubio fan. If I thought that winning was more important than doing right, I wouldn't be part of the #NeverTrump movement. If I thought that winning was more important than doing right, then I wouldn't be burning my credit with fellow conservatives on this board by telling them that they are wrong, and not just wrong, but flatly, incredibly, wrong in a deeply destructive way. If I thought that winning was more important than doing right, I'd be where you are, accepting of whatever nominee that the GOP puts out because - hey - we gotta win, right?

Objective Voice · Mar 11, 2016

Dittohead not! said:
Spoken by a true Trumpeteer.

Sing it with me (to the tune of the Mickey Mouse club song):

D O N A L D TRUMP!

Hilarious! I actually sang along and it fits!! :lamo

American · Mar 11, 2016

bg85 said:
lol.

"You support trump!"

"You can't prove that!"

sounds like you just committed a crime or something and are being advised by your lawyer to take the fifth.

Did you actually read my responses, and who I voted for in the Primary?

bg85 · Mar 11, 2016

American said:
Did you actually read my responses, and who I voted for in the Primary?

yeah. I was making an observation about that specific post. it's funny wording. "you can't prove that" vs. "I'm not".

American · Mar 11, 2016

bg85 said:
yeah. I was making an observation about that specific post. it's funny wording. "you can't prove that" vs. "I'm not".

You can't prove that puts the onus on him to prove his claim. Seems an obvious difference.

Harry Guerrilla · Mar 12, 2016

cpwill said:
:shrug: if you want to shrink into ennui, then don't come here. I come here to debate politics. It's in the name.

Again, mathematically, this is incorrect. His opposition is split between multiple candidates, which is why he can win delegates with a minority of the votes.

Exactly. That's why it's not negative - it solidifies his core, and gives him the ability to do things like win delegates with 35% of the vote.

You can disagree if you like on the assessment that it will work again in the future, but at this point, that's not an assessment, it's a data point. When (and again, I'm not his guy) Cruz pointed out the difference between early and day-of voting in Louisiana, he was pointing to the perfect example of what has been going on all race with the late-deciders. When people are exposed to Trump's record and he gets hit, he loses support.

:shrug: he is a lifelong liberal. I see no reason why, once he is done conning his base, he would continue to pretend to be anything else. Hell, he's already started admitting he intends to switch on his core issues.

No, Rubio comes off as an insider, because he's backed by insiders, and because he hasn't been hostile to the GOP the way that Cruz has.

Look, I consider you an efriend of sorts.
Even though we disagree on many things, I still respect you and your posting style/content.

With that said, I thought you were coming off a bit obsessive over this and it was a bit embarrassing.
Only reason I said anything.

cpwill said:
White Nationalists make up the most fervent core of Trump's support. The data point that most strongly correlates with where Trump voters live is google searches for the N Word.

Not all Trump supporters are white nationalists. But all white nationalists are Trump supporters, and if you don't think the Democrats are going to have a gleeful time sticking that to us from here until 2060, you haven't been paying attention to the effects of their use of the "Southern Strategy" claims with African Americans.

You're better than "guilt by association."

cpwill said:
Then you need to go back and read it. I responded to your claim that they were all just saying whatever their audience wanted to hear by pointing to major times when two of them (Cruz and Rubio) had directly confronted the audience whose votes they were seeking with what they wanted to hear least.

If I was thought that winning was more important than doing right, I wouldn't be a Rubio fan. If I thought that winning was more important than doing right, I wouldn't be part of the #NeverTrump movement. If I thought that winning was more important than doing right, then I wouldn't be burning my credit with fellow conservatives on this board by telling them that they are wrong, and not just wrong, but flatly, incredibly, wrong in a deeply destructive way. If I thought that winning was more important than doing right, I'd be where you are, accepting of whatever nominee that the GOP puts out because - hey - we gotta win, right?

I dunno, I never really pegged you for a Cruz guy.
He comes off as stale, flaky and deceptive.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel I'm not about those two.

cpwill · Mar 14, 2016

Harry Guerrilla said:
Look, I consider you an efriend of sorts.
Even though we disagree on many things, I still respect you and your posting style/content.

Concur. Because of that, I figured I'd take a couple of days to mull over what you've written.

With that said, I thought you were coming off a bit obsessive over this and it was a bit embarrassing.

Actually I don't post quite a lot that I would like to, in order to avoid being a one-trick pony. Mostly, however, conversation here follows the news, and the news, overwhelmingly, is about Trump.

Am I obsessed? Hm. Perhaps. I am extremely worried, but I believe justifiably so. Trump represents militant nationalism tied to middle class socialism, as a third solution to a broken two party system with an open acceptance if not celebration of doing violence to the political order, occasionally represented by real people. His movement is centered around a strong-man worship and cult of personality that heavily utilizes betrayal narratives featuring impotent elites and an unpopular minority. The Poli Sci name for this ideology is fascism. Proto-Fascists are plausibly threatening to take over the GOP and destroy the conservative movement. Yeah, that pretty much grabs my attention. Trump doesn't stop at being non-PC, he destroys democratic norms of discourse, norms that are there as a form of civic protection. The demagoguery, mass-blaming, rhetoric, and permission that he gives people to act out inspires a counter-reaction, meaning that our body politic is going to get worse, more tribal, and more violent.

Civilization is a fragile thing, it is difficult, long, and costly to build, and it is easily destroyed. Those fences that we set up around social norms of behavior are put there for good damn reason. It is difficult to do so, because the incentives for each actor are for everyone else to obey the rules, while they don't. It usually, therefore, requires enormous effort and bloodshed in order to initially create the kind of order that allows for civilization. Leftists occasionally don't get this, and dally into breaking through fences. Trump has decided to take the right and bulldoze them for personal benefit. The left will react in kind (see: Chicago, where a whole bunch of leftists just learned that the way to stop Republicans is to riot). I don't see Donald Trump as a threat to the GOP, or a threat to the conservative movement, I honestly see him as a Wilson-style threat to the Republic.

You're better than "guilt by association."

Oh, I'm saying guilt by participation. When Trump re-tweets White Nationalists, coyly suggests that Hispanic judges can't be trusted, and attracts and encourages these people, he knows full well what he is doing.

It's also a generational disaster for the GOP. Not all Trump supporters are white nationalists. But all white nationalists are Trump supporters, and if you don't think the Democrats are going to have a gleeful time sticking that to us from here until 2060, you haven't been paying attention to the effects of their use of the "Southern Strategy" claims with African Americans. A Trump candidacy could easily mean that all their dreams about Demographically-Ensured Victory for the next 40-60 years actually come true.

I dunno, I never really pegged you for a Cruz guy.
He comes off as stale, flaky and deceptive.

I think he has been at least two of those things (less sure about "flaky"). I'm not a Cruz guy. I'm a Rubio guy. But Rubio can't beat Trump at this point, and Cruz can. I would vote for Bernie Sanders, if it would help stop Trump. Losing to Socialism is worth beating Fascism, especially when the conservative movement can recover from the former, but not the latter.

cpwill · Mar 14, 2016

Objective Voice said:
It may be that some of what Mitt Romney said about Donald Trump was right after all. He may not be the business man he makes himself out to be. I found this article on MSN.com which claims that Donald Trump doesn't own most of the products he bragged about recently. The MSN.com article links to various sources for the products Trump lamented, such, as Trump Wine and Trump steaks. When I reviewed the Trump Wine website, specifically, the Terms and Conditions page, I found this little gem at the very bottom:

(Note: The MSN.com article mentions this, too. But I just had to find it on the website for myself.)

Who is Eric Trump you might ask? He's Donald Trump's son from his marriage to Ivana Trump. So while the Donald is out giving the impression that he owns Trump Wine, he really doesn't. It's his son's business. But it get's better, folks.

Trump Steaks? It doesn't appear that those he presented at his press conference yesterday were his either. A close up of the packaging shows the steaks come from The Bush Brothers Provisions Company, a meat distribution company that been in existence since 1925.

The article also talks about Trump Water, Trump Airline and Trump and Trump Magazine and calls their ownership into question.

That's not to say Donald Trump might not be invested in any of the companies that are still in operations and are selling the products he's mentioned or those that actually bear the Trump name or that he might not have been majority owner of those that are still in business, such as, his son's winery, at some point, but the examples I've listed above which are also mentioned in the OP article clearly are not owned by him.

Seems the secrets are starting to come out on Donald Trump's entrepreneurship and apparently things aren't exactly as they seem.

Confronted with it, Trump doubles down on the lies.

..At his election night presser on Tuesday night, Trump brought out a bunch of steaks, water, wine, and a magazine to show that despite what Mitt Romney may have said, those businesses haven’t failed. The problem is, some of them have.

Those steaks are not Trump Steaks, they were bought from a local meat supplier (the supplier confirmed this). Cooper brought this up to Trump, but he insisted that they’re Trump stakes and he continues to have a “tremendous steak business.”

Cooper also brought up how the magazine Trump kept touting as his 1) isn’t the failed magazine Mitt Romney called him out on, and 2) isn’t even a Trump magazine.

The Donald insisted he’s had “many magazines” over the course of many years and has opened and closed a bunch of them because “you don’t make any money” with magazines....

This guy is gonna be so easy to cream in the general.

lpast · Mar 14, 2016

@Cpwill Trump is appealing to the middleclass who have been abandoned by both parties.

Trump said 3 things that endeared huge numbers to him. Stop Illegal Immigration, Preserve Social Security and medicare.

The Rhetoric that came out of the GOP since the teapary caucus in the house formed has chased many middleclass republicans away. My rep a firm member of the teaparty caucus and party of the coup against Boehner isnt running for re election because he knows he wont win. Every vote hes made was listed and everyone was against anything for the working class and every vote was to benefit employers, corporations and the rich.
I know staunch conservatives cheered Scott Walker and Chris Christie for shafting all the union workers in their states. How did they do in their Potus campaigns ?, that certainly played a big part in putting them down.

The democrats have done NOTHING for the middleclass either and Clinton shoving nafta down everyones throat open the gate to outsourcing americas working class' prosperity.

Obama shoved his trade deal through the same way and Union and working people are not happy.

Ted Cruz voted for Obamas trade deal and Ohio Remembers

A history of support for free-trade deals by Ted Cruz and his wife, Heidi, is dogging the senator’s campaign in the important “winner-take-all” Ohio GOP presidential primary, especially since the Cleveland Plain Dealer has just reported that the state lost 112,500 jobs last year because of the U.S. trade deficit with countries in the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement.
A CNN poll on Wednesday showed Donald Trump leading in Ohio, with 41 percent, over John Kasich, at 35 percent. Cruz was in third, with 15 percent.

Cruz facing trade-deal headwinds in Ohio

Dittohead not! · Mar 14, 2016

cpwill said:
Concur. Because of that, I figured I'd take a couple of days to mull over what you've written.

Actually I don't post quite a lot that I would like to, in order to avoid being a one-trick pony. Mostly, however, conversation here follows the news, and the news, overwhelmingly, is about Trump.

Am I obsessed? Hm. Perhaps. I am extremely worried, but I believe justifiably so. Trump represents militant nationalism tied to middle class socialism, as a third solution to a broken two party system with an open acceptance if not celebration of doing violence to the political order, occasionally represented by real people. His movement is centered around a strong-man worship and cult of personality that heavily utilizes betrayal narratives featuring impotent elites and an unpopular minority. The Poli Sci name for this ideology is fascism. Proto-Fascists are plausibly threatening to take over the GOP and destroy the conservative movement. Yeah, that pretty much grabs my attention. Trump doesn't stop at being non-PC, he destroys democratic norms of discourse, norms that are there as a form of civic protection. The demagoguery, mass-blaming, rhetoric, and permission that he gives people to act out inspires a counter-reaction, meaning that our body politic is going to get worse, more tribal, and more violent.

Civilization is a fragile thing, it is difficult, long, and costly to build, and it is easily destroyed. Those fences that we set up around social norms of behavior are put there for good damn reason. It is difficult to do so, because the incentives for each actor are for everyone else to obey the rules, while they don't. It usually, therefore, requires enormous effort and bloodshed in order to initially create the kind of order that allows for civilization. Leftists occasionally don't get this, and dally into breaking through fences. Trump has decided to take the right and bulldoze them for personal benefit. The left will react in kind (see: Chicago, where a whole bunch of leftists just learned that the way to stop Republicans is to riot). I don't see Donald Trump as a threat to the GOP, or a threat to the conservative movement, I honestly see him as a Wilson-style threat to the Republic.

Oh, I'm saying guilt by participation. When Trump re-tweets White Nationalists, coyly suggests that Hispanic judges can't be trusted, and attracts and encourages these people, he knows full well what he is doing.

It's also a generational disaster for the GOP. Not all Trump supporters are white nationalists. But all white nationalists are Trump supporters, and if you don't think the Democrats are going to have a gleeful time sticking that to us from here until 2060, you haven't been paying attention to the effects of their use of the "Southern Strategy" claims with African Americans. A Trump candidacy could easily mean that all their dreams about Demographically-Ensured Victory for the next 40-60 years actually come true.

I think he has been at least two of those things (less sure about "flaky"). I'm not a Cruz guy. I'm a Rubio guy. But Rubio can't beat Trump at this point, and Cruz can. I would vote for Bernie Sanders, if it would help stop Trump. Losing to Socialism is worth beating Fascism, especially when the conservative movement can recover from the former, but not the latter.

Well said, cpwill, well said.

and this one may be correct as well:

This guy is gonna be so easy to cream in the general.

I hope so, because the opposition isn't running anyone who the general electorate is going to rally behind either. If Trump isn't going to win, he's going to have to be easy to beat.

Maybe in 2020.....

justabubba · Mar 14, 2016

yep, he has disappointed me, but damn this is one of the ways he is so great

Trump doesn't own most of the 'Trump' products he bragged about this week

cpwill

Harry Guerrilla

Peter King

cpwill

Harry Guerrilla

bg85

cpwill

Objective Voice

American

Trump Grump Whisperer

bg85

American

Trump Grump Whisperer

Harry Guerrilla

cpwill

cpwill

lpast

Dittohead not!

master political analyst

justabubba

long standing member