Trudeau Drops Campaign Promises and Goes All In With Deficits

Mr Person said:

I don't see how backing out of the pipeline was a big mistake. It provided quite a lot of benefits to Canada in exchange for some temporary construction jobs, a few maintenance jobs, and the spill risk presented by yet another oil pipeline. They would have gotten cheaper access to the world market, but what really would we get back?

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Upgrading a product that is rich in petrochemicals. Refineries in the Gulf coast spent billions on ugrading to handle this product.
It is no where near as volatile as what comes out of the Bakken fields.

Also beats the heck out of rail shipments.
Next - look at how many pipelines have been built during the time that Keystone was under numerous reviews.
From a Canadian perspective- many are fed up with the US only looking for support for their programs-policies- yet shunt Canada's aside.

Grand Mal said:

Doesn't matter now. For $30/bbl might as well leave it in the ground.
Hell, the feds here might look at a pipeline up the MacKenzie Valley to Tuktoyaktuk on the Arctic. The ice-free season gets longer every year and you can go to Europe or Asia from there.
Trudeau's been in office for what, 3 months? That door was never open for him.

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He stated no more tanker traffic on the West Coast- Yet it is fine for the East Coast.
2 Pipelines- One East and the other to Vancouver.
We are a commodity exporting country- regardless of what Justin thinks.

JANFU said:

Upgrading a product that is rich in petrochemicals. Refineries in the Gulf coast spent billions on ugrading to handle this product.
It is no where near as volatile as what comes out of the Bakken fields.

Also beats the heck out of rail shipments.
Next - look at how many pipelines have been built during the time that Keystone was under numerous reviews.
From a Canadian perspective- many are fed up with the US only looking for support for their programs-policies- yet shunt Canada's aside.

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How connected are you with the oil patch? I have been hearing that the major players are pissed off at Obama as he had promised initially to "fast-track" the XL extension. Then he added three more levels of approval including the State Department, all of whom gave it a go-ahead. His "we don't want Canadian oil on our land" was a call to arms and many now say "OK, we don't want American oil on OUR land....and seek to shut down the Trans-Alaska network.

From these comments I suspect Canada will begin moving off the American oil market as we seem to be being forced to do with the economy. And that leads me to the brilliance of Trudeau's "promised" deficit. It is a kind of blessing, this oil price problem. As we shift gears, likely into aerospace, technology and medicine, the less we will be tied to the tit of oil.

I have said I will not see the Keystone XL started in my lifetime. The political waters have become so poisoned that there will NEVER be the political will nor the desire on the part of the buildings. In the meantime, America's aging infrastructure will be increasingly stressed to handle the load of oil by rail, an impediment to getting to port. By then we will have expanded our port facilities and have the advantage in the international market.

zimmer said:

Only took 4-months for this socialist.

His father was a menace who did much damage, and the son seems to be cut from the same cloth.

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Absolute "brilliance". The best time to run a deficit is when the people want one, and we do! Since Trudeau was sworn in, every mayor, councilor reeve, mla, and mp is lining up to the spout for "infrastructure money". In case people hadn't noticed, there is ONE province in the black, British Columbia. We are headed into very hard times if this oil price issue lasts and we're looking at years here.

To the smart, that means its time to invest and retool. Oil has been our black gold through five decades. It will not likely be the huge employer it once was, based on current prices and consumption there is no reason go punching more wholes in the ground, thus no jobs. Watch, the budget when presented is going to be heavy on retraining, re-tooling and re-directing the economy. The word "aerospace" will be used a lot.

The knee jerk response to any and all deficits is nothing but panic. As we all should know, there is a time to sew and a time to reap, a time to save and a time to spend. Thank you Harper Conservatives for doing such a fine job of saving, but when you tried to social engineer you had to go away. Now, it is a time to spend, to educate and invest in the future. In so doing we can revamp the economy, move off the oil tit and focus on other things we have proven to be very good at.

I say Bravo!

Fearandloathing said:

How connected are you with the oil patch? I have been hearing that the major players are pissed off at Obama as he had promised initially to "fast-track" the XL extension. Then he added three more levels of approval including the State Department, all of whom gave it a go-ahead. His "we don't want Canadian oil on our land" was a call to arms and many now say "OK, we don't want American oil on OUR land....and seek to shut down the Trans-Alaska network.

From these comments I suspect Canada will begin moving off the American oil market as we seem to be being forced to do with the economy. And that leads me to the brilliance of Trudeau's "promised" deficit. It is a kind of blessing, this oil price problem. As we shift gears, likely into aerospace, technology and medicine, the less we will be tied to the tit of oil.

I have said I will not see the Keystone XL started in my lifetime. The political waters have become so poisoned that there will NEVER be the political will nor the desire on the part of the buildings. In the meantime, America's aging infrastructure will be increasingly stressed to handle the load of oil by rail, an impediment to getting to port. By then we will have expanded our port facilities and have the advantage in the international market.

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The west depends upon energy exports- no escaping that- Ontario had driven many companies out of the country, not based on taxes, but costs of electricity.
Quebec, being a have not province since I don't know when, expects equalization payments, but no oil.
The only viable options are to the Maritime and Vancouver.
We are commodity based economy in the west- the jobs for aerospace, it they drop the F35 and have Bombardier as the lead contractor on a US or Euro fighter, will keep them and the rest of the industry solvent.
They are changing the ship contract, less money for Irving- buying off the shelf. That contract Irving received was a gem, plump and fat. 1 spec offers 250 M to design an icebreaker- plans off the shell cost 20 M. Pretty sweet payoff for the Irvings.

Now when the US comes looking for water, we best make it pricey. And in our favor.
Recall the plan back in the 50's of reversing the river flows from North to South??
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Water_and_Power_Alliance

Napoleon said:

LMAO. You're clutching your pearls and rending your garments over $22 billion dollars? Really?

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Hey, deficits caused liberal/progressives to hang Reagan in effigy, and obsess with re-writing the history books.

Grand Mal said:

He said all along he'd have to run a deficit to try to stimulate the economy. We've taken a beating from the price of oil but don't worry so much, we'll be fine.
We appreciate your concern, though.

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Stimulus doesn't work, but you won't convince someone like Trudeau otherwise.

He's a Socialist and little concept of how Market economies function let alone how to properly and safely grow one.

When this Stimulus doesn't work he'll keep spending. Just like Japan did back in the 90s when they blew through 10 stimulus packages totalling 100 Trillion Yen.

Fenton said:

Stimulus doesn't work, but you won't convince someone like Trudeau otherwise.

He's a Socialist and little concept of how Market economies function let alone how to properly and safely grow one.

When this Stimulus doesn't work he'll keep spending. Just like Japan did back in the 90s when they blew through 10 stimulus packages totalling 100 Trillion Yen.

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As I said, we'll be fine.
One thing that I think most Canadians know and you don't seem to is that the feds are pretty irrelevant when it comes to economics. They can spend, they can not spend, they can balance the budget or run a deficit and nothing makes a lot of difference in the end. If you think your President can 'grow' a market economy, you're kidding yourself. Trudeau will blow a few billions and be seen to be 'doing something about it' but nothing will change until commodity prices go up.
In the meantime, I'm going to move the potato patch to over there and try a couple new tomatoes this season.

My biggest worry is how this will impact the Canadian dollar and possibly further devalue it. I hurt for my friends up in Canada that saw price increases due to the CAD doing so poorly. It's good news for me when I travel and convert money during my trips to Canada but I know it really hurts the Canadian consumer and for their sake would like to see the CAD to better.

If Canada wants a deficit let them have one, but I do hope it doesn't devalue their dollar further (even if that would personally benefit me :mrgreen.

digsbe said:

My biggest worry is how this will impact the Canadian dollar and possibly further devalue it. I hurt for my friends up in Canada that saw price increases due to the CAD doing so poorly. It's good news for me when I travel and convert money during my trips to Canada but I know it really hurts the Canadian consumer and for their sake would like to see the CAD to better.

If Canada wants a deficit let them have one, but I do hope it doesn't devalue their dollar further (even if that would personally benefit me :mrgreen.

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Our economy is closely linked to oil. It increases, so does the dollar. We can expect low commodity prices for a few years or longer.

Fenton said:

Stimulus doesn't work, but you won't convince someone like Trudeau otherwise.

He's a Socialist and little concept of how Market economies function let alone how to properly and safely grow one.

When this Stimulus doesn't work he'll keep spending. Just like Japan did back in the 90s when they blew through 10 stimulus packages totalling 100 Trillion Yen.

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Like the US we have aging infrastructure- with higher unemployment, companies lacking work, laying people off, it is time to replace that infrastructure.
From roads to water treatment to addressing the disparity in services - health care- education-water treatment - for First Nations peoples.

JANFU said:

Upgrading a product that is rich in petrochemicals. Refineries in the Gulf coast spent billions on ugrading to handle this product.
It is no where near as volatile as what comes out of the Bakken fields.

Also beats the heck out of rail shipments.
Next - look at how many pipelines have been built during the time that Keystone was under numerous reviews.
From a Canadian perspective- many are fed up with the US only looking for support for their programs-policies- yet shunt Canada's aside.

Click to expand...

Well, it did screw over any businesses that made investments thinking it would happen, but I'm more wondering about why it was so good for America. I mean, we don't want to screw over our allies. But at the same time, if we're building something over our land like an oil pipe, which would primarily benefit another country, I start to wonder what we are getting out of it.

Fenton said:

Stimulus doesn't work, but you won't convince someone like Trudeau otherwise.

He's a Socialist and little concept of how Market economies function let alone how to properly and safely grow one.

When this Stimulus doesn't work he'll keep spending. Just like Japan did back in the 90s when they blew through 10 stimulus packages totalling 100 Trillion Yen.

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Really?

Then how come we've done it before?

Trudeau a socialist.....that's just name calling and wrong. Canada has a long, long history of saving in the good times and borrow in the lean and we have kept our economy in far better shape than the US.

We are nowhere near the Americans who have been borrowing for day-to-day operating expenses, we have a great deal of margin. You maybe forget the late 1990's when we erased the deficit and brought our debt down to about the best in the world. We trimmed fat and got rid of useless programs and rearranged how we send money to the provinces. So it makes sense to borrow now, our platinum AAA credit credit rating means it won't cost much over the long term.

JANFU said:

Our economy is closely linked to oil. It increases, so does the dollar. We can expect low commodity prices for a few years or longer.

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I'd love to see Canada move away from oil dependence and into other sectors so they have more control over their currency and value. I know the weak dollar is really hurting some families (although they say it may increase labor jobs in the long term). As it is now the Middle East basically has more power over the CAD than the Canadian government and investment banks.

Mr Person said:

Well, it did screw over any businesses that made investments thinking it would happen, but I'm more wondering about why it was so good for America. I mean, we don't want to screw over our allies. But at the same time, if we're building something over our land like an oil pipe, which would primarily benefit another country, I start to wonder what we are getting out of it.

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A multiple increase in products derived and exported to other countries. Tax revenue.
Which is safer-pipeline or rail?

JANFU said:

A multiple increase in products derived and exported to other countries. Tax revenue.
Which is safer-pipeline or rail?

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That depends over whom whose soil the pipeline or rail goes, isn't it?

I don't pretend to be hugely educated on this particular issue. I am simply saying that from what I have read, it sounded like the deal would have been a greater benefit to Canada than America; while we Americans should not screw over allies, we - like all countries - should look out for our national interest.

My understanding was that most of the rail traffic that would be diverted to pipeline traffic was currently over Canadian soil, rather than US soil. And again, if I'm wrong, I'd be happy to withdraw that opinion...

But if it's so, then I would prefer to see something given in exchange for the benefit to Canadian fossil fuel companies, which the pipeline would grant.





(I might as well stop here to express my opinion that most of Obama's stated reasons for nixing the pipeline struck me as BS)

Mr Person said:

That depends over whom whose soil the pipeline or rail goes, isn't it?

I don't pretend to be hugely educated on this particular issue. I am simply saying that from what I have read, it sounded like the deal would have been a greater benefit to Canada than America; while we Americans should not screw over allies, we - like all countries - should look out for our national interest.

My understanding was that most of the rail traffic that would be diverted to pipeline traffic was currently over Canadian soil, rather than US soil. And again, if I'm wrong, I'd be happy to withdraw that opinion...

But if it's so, then I would prefer to see something given in exchange for the benefit to Canadian fossil fuel companies, which the pipeline would grant.





(I might as well stop here to express my opinion that most of Obama's stated reasons for nixing the pipeline struck me as BS)

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Goes to the Cdn border, then shipped by rail. All legal.

Canadian oil trains to US to reach "staggering" levels | National Observer

Neatbit by rail an alternative to oil sands' pipeline problems to USA, Asia markets - The American Energy News : The American Energy News