• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Scalia: Affirmative Action Sends Blacks To Schools Too Advanced For Them[W:319]

I figured the reason why Jews make up 2% of the American population but at least 20% of my class at Yale and far more than 2% of the members of Phi Beta Kappa isn't based on inherently superior "genes" but rather coming from a culture where education was praised, craved and honored. and the first black female to graduate valedictorian at the local law school was raised by white Jewish parents who adopted her and her chinese and American born brothers who also set the curve at the medical school
But tellingly, it's Not "just Jews".
It's Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence/IQ that is the well known phenomenon.
If you google it you will find tons of info. (Please do!)
It's Not in dispute.
This is NOT the case with ALL "Jews" (ie, Sephardic) who get basically the same upbringing and culture.
Nor does either group get as much emphasis/Obsessive pushing on academics than the Second highest IQers, NE Asians.

and None of it would explain why those with Ashkenazi Genes make up half the world Chess Champions, since at the serious, but Junior, Chess level they make up small percentages vs the rest of the planet, especially non-Jewish Russians.
Nor would it explain there 20x over-representation in Nobel Prizes, since, again, in absolute number, many more people get highly cultural upbringings.

And of course, it absolutely makes sense If one believes in Evolution.
For more than a millennia, Jews were forbidden from owning land/farming and many professions.
The more successful ones (who procreated more) were those who were better Merchants, Bankers, Scholars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alansohn/Ashkenazi_intelligence
[......]
Expert Findings
Psychometrics research has found that Ashkenazi Jews have the highest mean score of any ethnic group on standardized tests of general intelligence, at roughly one half to one standard deviation higher than the mean of the general white population.[5] These studies also indicate that this advantage is primarily in verbal and mathematical performance; spatial performance is about 90, if whites are taken as the mean. Estimates vary from 107 to 117. [6][7][8][9]

Achievement
Ashkenazi Jews have made disproportionately Large contributions to presumably Intellectual pursuits.
Though they are about a ¼ of 1% of the world's population, they comprise 28% of Nobel Prize winners in Physics, Chemistry, Physiology or Medicine, and Economics, and have accounted for More than HALF of world Chess Champions.[10]

In the United States, Ashkenazi Jews represent less than 2% of the population, but have won 40% of the Nobel Prizes in science awarded to U.S. citizens, and 25% of all Turing Awards.

A significant decline in the number of Nobel Prizes awarded to Europeans and a corresponding increase in the number of prizes awarded to U.S. citizens occurred at the same time as Nazi persecutions of Jews drove them from Europe during the 1930s and the Holocaust reduced their number in Europe during the 1940s.[11]

Cochran et al.
The 2005 study Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence [1] by Gregory Cochran, Jason Hardy, and Henry Harpending at the University of Utah noted that European Jews were forbidden to work in many of the common jobs of the middle-ages from C.E. 800 to 1700, such as agriculture, and subsequently worked in high proportion in meritocratic jobs requiring higher intelligence, such as finance and trade, some of which were forbidden to gentiles by the church. Those who performed better are known to have raised more children to adulthood, according to Cochran et al., passing on their genes in greater proportion than those who performed less successfully.[2]

Cochran et. al. hypothesized that the eugenic pressure was strong enough that mutations creating higher intelligence when inherited...
[....]​
 
Last edited:
Actually, Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence/IQ is a well known phenomenon.
If you google it you will find tons of info. (Please do!)
It's Not in dispute.
This is NOT the case with ALL "Jews" (ie, Sephardic) who get basically the same upbringing and culture.
Nor does either group get as much emphasis/Obsessive pushing on academics than the Second highest IQers, NE Asians.

and None of it would explain why those with Ashkenazi Genes make up half the world Chess Champions, since at the serious, but Junior, Chess level they make up small percentages vs the rest of the planet, especially non-Jewish Russians.
Nor would it explainm there 20x over-representation in Nobel Prizes, since, again, in absolute number, many more people get higghly cultural upbringings.

And of course, it absolutely makes sense If one believes in Evolution.
For more than a millennia, Jews were forbidden from owning land/farming and many professions.
The more successful ones (who procreated more) were those were better Merchants, Bankers, Scholars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alansohn/Ashkenazi_intelligence
[......]
Expert Findings
Psychometrics research has found that Ashkenazi Jews have the highest mean score of any ethnic group on standardized tests of general intelligence, at roughly one half to one standard deviation higher than the mean of the general white population.[5] These studies also indicate that this advantage is primarily in verbal and mathematical performance; spatial performance is about 90, if whites are taken as the mean. Estimates vary from 107 to 117. [6][7][8][9]

Achievement
Ashkenazi Jews have made disproportionately Large contributions to presumably Intellectual pursuits.
Though they are about a ¼ of 1% of the world's population, they comprise 28% of Nobel Prize winners in Physics, Chemistry, Physiology or Medicine, and Economics, and have accounted for More than HALF of world Chess Champions.[10]

In the United States, Ashkenazi Jews represent less than 2% of the population, but have won 40% of the Nobel Prizes in science awarded to U.S. citizens, and 25% of all Turing Awards.

A significant decline in the number of Nobel Prizes awarded to Europeans and a corresponding increase in the number of prizes awarded to U.S. citizens occurred at the same time as Nazi persecutions of Jews drove them from Europe during the 1930s and the Holocaust reduced their number in Europe during the 1940s.[11]

Cochran et al.
The 2005 study Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence [1] by Gregory Cochran, Jason Hardy, and Henry Harpending at the University of Utah noted that European Jews were forbidden to work in many of the common jobs of the middle-ages from C.E. 800 to 1700, such as agriculture, and subsequently worked in high proportion in meritocratic jobs requiring higher intelligence, such as finance and trade, some of which were forbidden to gentiles by the church. Those who performed better are known to have raised more children to adulthood, according to Cochran et al., passing on their genes in greater proportion than those who performed less successfully.[2]

Cochran et. al. hypothesized that the eugenic pressure was strong enough that mutations creating higher intelligence when inherited....​

Yale had 6 really really good chess players-all masters or higher during or close to my time there

Joel Benjamin, Evan Michaelides, Michael Wilder, Michael Rohde and John Tisdale. Three I know are Jewish, one was Greek Orthodox and I have no idea what Tisdale was. The sixth best was Ariel Levy-wanna guess what he was?
 
Yale had 6 really really good chess players-all masters or higher during or close to my time there

Joel Benjamin, Evan Michaelides, Michael Wilder, Michael Rohde and John Tisdale. Three I know are Jewish, one was Greek Orthodox and I have no idea what Tisdale was. The sixth best was Ariel Levy-wanna guess what he was?
I know you feel it's mostly culture, but I'm pretty sure it's not. I've put alotta time in it.

Great c-span <3 min Excerpt with Charles Murray
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIOzBlphHBs
I recommend the full one, and it can be found.
or
Henry Harpending with the more genetic analysis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj4cArZxGpI
Google his co-authored book "10,000" year explosion"
 
Last edited:
I know you feel it's mostly culture, but I'm pretty sure it's not. I've put alotta time in it.

Great c-span <3 min Excerpt with Charles Murray
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIOzBlphHBs
I recommend the full one, and it can be found.
or
Henry Harpending.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj4cArZxGpI



interesting. I won't dispute your argument. I just know that the many Jewish kids I grew up with -their families all pushed education, honored educational achievement and praised well educated people who they knew no matter their background. In fact (you'll like this one) my LS girlfriend was Jewish-not particularly observant but when she introduced me to her dad, he said (mentioning my last name) that's English isn't it-and I said yeah and my GF said-Dad-he went to Yale-and the guy said-hell that's almost as good as being Jewish

we got along fine!
 
interesting. I won't dispute your argument. I just know that the many Jewish kids I grew up with -their families all pushed education, honored educational achievement and praised well educated people who they knew no matter their background. In fact (you'll like this one) my LS girlfriend was Jewish-not particularly observant but when she introduced me to her dad, he said (mentioning my last name) that's English isn't it-and I said yeah and my GF said-Dad-he went to Yale-and the guy said-hell that's almost as good as being Jewish

we got along fine!
When IQ/academics come up, People always interject with "It's the culture".
OK but..
Did Asians and Jews win their cultures in a Lottery, OR did they make/Evolve their cultures Because they were smart?
 
When IQ/academics come up, People always interject with "It's the culture".
OK but..
Did Asians and Jews win their cultures in a Lottery, OR did they make/Evolve their cultures Because they were smart?


that's a brilliant question that I cannot adequately answer
 
that's a brilliant question that I cannot adequately answer
It was more rhetorical, if not absolute in answer.
Again, I thing the Ashkenazi/Sephardic IQ Divide is very telling.
gn
 
Agreed! You can throw in Jewish culture as well. My Father was Jewish, and although I am atheist, I did benefit from a Christian and Jewish upbringing to some varying degrees, however they never defined me per say. I married a Jewish woman who was from a conservative Jewish observance, I converted into Jewish faith only because her Mother would not accept me otherwise, and rather than making family get-togethers awkward I acquiesced.. I am since divorced, but one thing that I did learn about Jewish culture up close and personal was this universal belief and discipline to education and success. I know it sounds cliché, but Jews really do push education and personal responsibility at very early ages. (Jewish guilt lol) I ask myself, how many Jews do you see on welfare, or are homeless, or otherwise lay bouts? Not many, in fact I don't know a single one in my entire life.. I'm sure they exist, but very rare.. Asians are very similar although they take very different approaches to education, but the results are the same..

All one need to do is look at the last 50 years of Nobel Laureates to get an idea of just who is advancing the worlds knowledge. It's mostly Jews, almost no Muslims... But whatever.. It's not about IQ and for me more about culture.. But, Race, for whatever reason does play a role, as to how much I am not certain, but the data clearly suggest that race does have impact across the 4 major classifications.


Tim-
Care to expound upon the bolded?
 
I'm no expert in this area. How does it result in a less qualified person getting the spot? I know racial quotas are illegal and Affirmative Action means that of the many factors taken into consideration, race can be one of them. If a white person is more qualified in most of the categories than a black candidate, the white person will get the spot. Affirmative action makes its mark when the white candidate and the black candidate are fairly equal in all the other categories. In that case the instituion can legally award the position to the black candidate due to his race.

So in theory, the black candidate isn't taking the place of a more qualified candidate. At the worst he is taking the place of an equally qualified person.

That is in theory. Perhaps in practice it doesn't play out that way. In that case couldn't we just tweek the execution of it?

It's literally impossible to do that in practice without blacks being largely Underrepresented... seriously, it's simple math...so in practice that happens no matter what...

Whites- 64% of population
Blacks-13% of population
Asian- 5%
Hispanic- 17%

I'm going to do hypothetical stats to demonstrate the point, I made a very rough estimation from the data in this http://media.collegeboard.com/digit...Percentile-Ranks-by-Gender-Ethnicity-2012.pdf ...but the real ones are possibly much more drastic..
lets say
5% of the white population gets a 1400+ on the SAT
And 0.75% of the black population
And 13% of the Asian population
And 2.5% of the Hispanic population

That makes the possible pool of applicants
3.2% White
0.65% Asian
0.425% Hispanic
0.073% Black
=4.348% of population qualifies

Of those who qualify..
74% are White
15% are Asian
10% are Hispanic
1.7% are Black

So, in this hypothetical case, only 1.7% of the possible qualified applicants are black. So you have ALL these universities competing for only 1.7% of the applicants...
in order to fulfill the same population demographics.... you would have to select black applicants 8X more...Asians 60% less...Whites 20% less...Hispanics 1.7X more.... There is literally not enough qualified black people to fullfill the spots in the top Universities... and they are all competing each other for application.

Now I mentioned that these stats were hypothetical, because I don't think the actual ones are available... but I do suspect the discrepancies are actually much worse just looking at these statistics.
http://media.collegeboard.com/digit...Percentile-Ranks-by-Gender-Ethnicity-2012.pdf
for a score of 700+ it is still a 99th percentile for blacks and Hispanics... while whites 94th percentile(which blacks do not obtain until a score of 550) and Asians are at 85th percentile at a score of 700!!! (if you don't know, it means that only 1% of blacks make a score of 700 or more..... while 6% of whites and 15% of Asians make a score of 700 or more... that is a 6X and 15X difference.
 
Last edited:
On the first page of this thread I stated this

There needs to be authoritative and accurate data on this entire question which examines a significant number of colleges - from all levels - and how students do there. The entire MISMATCH theory is just that - and is largely supported by cherry picked anecdotal information which is hardly authoritative or complete.

I have always said that if we are using test scores to admit people, I really don't care if the entire medical school class at USC is made up of Asians or Africans or Whites. But we better make surety test being used is fair and representative of what a person knows and what skills and knowledge they have that the experts believe is essential to success in that field of study.

The MISMATCH theory says that because the University of Michigan wants 10% African-american enrollment, they will lower their admission standards to admit kids who otherwise would go to Eastern Michigan just miles away. And because of that, many of the black U of M kids end up in an environment that they are simply not prepared for nor successful in because they were "bumped up". That leaves Eastern Michigan scrambling for black kids who otherwise would go to Washtenaw Community College. And the mismatch continues at that level. And Washtenaw CC then lets in kids who really do not even belong in college at all but who will take the free ride just because the school is eager to get their black numbers up.

And that is the theory.

So lets see the data and put it to the test. Not cherry picked data but I would like to know if complete (as complete as humanly possible) exists in this area so we can determine if the MISMATCH theory and the "bumping up" idea holds water.

Does anyone have that data?
 
He said black people are not capable of attending the same University as whites.

Roberts also said "what unique perspective does a minority student bring into a physics class?"

This doesn't eliminate the problem, but shows the racism of certain members of scotus.


He did? I didn't see that anywhere. Can you point to where he said that black people are not capable of attending the same University as whites?
 
It's literally impossible to do that in practice without blacks being largely Underrepresented... seriously, it's simple math...so in practice that happens no matter what...
Whites- 64% of population
Blacks-13% of population
Asian- 5%
Hispanic- 17%
[....]
Now I mentioned that these stats were hypothetical, because I don't think the actual ones are available... but I do suspect the discrepancies are actually much worse just looking at these statistics.
http://media.collegeboard.com/digit...Percentile-Ranks-by-Gender-Ethnicity-2012.pdf
for a score of 700+ it is still a 99th percentile for blacks and Hispanics... while whites 94th percentile(which blacks do not obtain until a score of 550) and Asians are at 85th percentile at a score of 700!!! (if you don't know, it means that only 1% of blacks make a score of 700 or more..... while 6% of whites and 15% of Asians make a score of 700 or more... that is a 6X and 15X difference.
Nice research/post and you would be correct.
We do have some real world studies and admission stats tho.
I posted many on this page and surounds.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/asia/...and-harder-working-than-everyone-else-10.html
Some highlights linked on the above page.

1. HuffPost
"some top colleges with race-blind admissions have double the Asian percentage of Ivy League schools, prove the existence of discrimination.
[...]
Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.""​

2. Why Caltech Is in a Class by Itself | Minding The Campus
Russell K. Nieli
Dec 2010
[...]
Toward a Pure Meritocracy

Of the top two dozen or so elite universities in America only one has managed both to avoid the craziness of the post-60s intellectual fads, and to establish something pretty close to a pure meritocracy -- California Institute of Technology, which has not received the general recognition among academics that it clearly deserves.

The statistics on Caltech's students and faculty are simply spellbinding. An entering Caltech freshman last year who received a 770 on the math SAT would be exceeded in this area by 3/4 of his fellow entering freshmen.
Many Caltech freshmen got a perfect 800 on their math SAT, while a near-perfect 1560 combination score placed an incoming freshmen at only the 75th percentile of his entering classmates. A combined SAT score of 1470 (the 99th percentile by national standards) placed an entering Caltech freshman at only the 25th percentile among his fellow students. (At Harvard and Princeton, by contrast, the 25th percentile is reached by a score of only 1380).
All recent Caltech undergraduates have scored 700 or above on the math SAT, and far from being a bunch of inarticulate science and math geeks, the vast majority have scored over 700 on the English verbal SAT as well.
[...]
What this means is that at Caltech, there are no dumb jocks, dumb legacies, or dumb Affirmative Action students.
[...]
In a state and a region of the country with the Largest Hispanic population, Caltech's entering freshmen class in 2008 was less than 6% Hispanic (13 out of 236).
The unwillingness to lower standards for a larger Black representation is even more striking -- less than 1% (2/236) of Caltech's 2008 entering freshmen were listed as "non-Hispanic black".
This "Underrepresentation" of Blacks and Hispanics, of course, was more than made up for by the Huge "Overrepresentation" of Asians.
Only 4% of the U.S. population, Asians made up a whopping 40% of the incoming freshmen class in 2008, a slightly larger proportion than the 39% figure for whites.
Applicants to Caltech are clearly seen as representing Only themselves and their own Individual merit and achievement, Not their Race or their ethnic group.
As a professor at Caltech who has taught there for many years explained to me in an email, "We try, like our competitors, very, very hard to find, recruit, and nurture underrepresented minorities but We won't bend our standards."
[...]​

That's what happens at the very High end without Quotas/"Holistic" admissions/Racial balancing. They Do seek minorities; just don't bend admissions/lower standards.
and of course, just as the highly correlated SAT scores, these stats - more originally - mirror the high end of the dreaded IQ Bell Curves of the respective groups.

The same thing, and even More prounced, can be seen as NYC's Choicest High Schools (Bronx Science, Stuyvesant, etc) where Asians make up 50%-75% of those purely meritocratic admissions.
To make elite schools ‘fair,’ city will punish poor Asians | New York Post
 
Last edited:
He's correct. I have seen several studies that show that bar passage for law students is somewhat tied to class standing. A black who say is going to be at the bottom of his class at a top school like U of Penn, Chicago or Cornell, has a rather high chance of failing the bar but the same black at a lower ranked school such as Rutgers, or New York Law will probably be in the middle of his class and have a far better chance of passing the bar.
The same is true for Whites as well.
 
The same is true for Whites as well.

whites don't tend to get into law schools where they are out of their league
 
Cool- I had a title VII case where the black female applicant sued over not being promoted to a GS-15. She claimed she was more qualified for the position (which was not an accounting position) because she had a CPA

on cross examination during the deposition, she admitted she had TAKEN THE TEST 16 times before she passed!!

In most states if you flunk the bar more than say 3 times-that is it

but back to affirmative action. I think some of the blacks I went to law school with would have been better off going to their state's top public school. besides going to your state's best public school is never going to hurt you looking for a job in your state

Cases like this are common in the Federal Government. If someone doesn't get the promotion they "deserve", the case instantly becomes about race. I'm not a lawyer but I hear about these kinds of complaints fairly often. I have respect for people of all colors and backgrounds, but the demagoguery from democrats is pathetic.
 
Cases like this are common in the Federal Government. If someone doesn't get the promotion they "deserve", the case instantly becomes about race. I'm not a lawyer but I hear about these kinds of complaints fairly often. I have respect for people of all colors and backgrounds, but the demagoguery from democrats is pathetic.

I handled over 200 such cases. The only ones I saw that had merit were "failures to accommodate" those who were under the protection of the Rehabilitation Act (which is like the ADA in the federal government). and generally it was because the boss in question was a guy or woman who was a tough tough worker who couldn't understand why someone else couldn't work with say a bad knee when the boss in question was back working 2 days after having back surgery.
 
Back
Top Bottom