First Attacker ID'ed From Paris Carnage

First attacker identified from Paris carnage - Yahoo News

The attacks, which killed 129 people and wounded 352, including 99 critically, were the first ever suicide bombings on French soil. Unlike those in January, none of the assailants had ever been jailed for terror offences.

Mostefai, born in the poor Paris suburb of Courcouronnes as one of four brothers and two sisters, had eight convictions for petty crimes but had never been imprisoned. Prints found on a finger in the Bataclan matched those in police files.

Paris prosecutor Francois Molins said he had came to the authorities' attention in 2010 as having been radicalised but had "never been implicated in a terrorist network or plot".

"It's a crazy thing, it's madness," his brother told AFP, his voice trembling, before he was taken into custody along with his father on Saturday night.

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So he was born in Paris. Not a refugee.

In a statement posted online Saturday, IS claimed responsibility for the attacks and referred to French air strikes on IS in Syria.

The group, which has sown mayhem in large swathes of Syria and Iraq, threatened further attacks in France "as long as it continues its Crusader campaign."

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And ISIS gives the reasons why the attack was carried out: because of France's military interventions...

PoS said:

First attacker identified from Paris carnage - Yahoo News



So he was born in Paris. Not a refugee.



And ISIS gives the reasons why the attack was carried out: because of France's military interventions...

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interesting :roll:

This information was reported prior to your source.

PoS said:

And ISIS gives the reasons why the attack was carried out: because of France's military interventions...

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Then surely the reasonable reaction is to cater to their demands. Wouldn't it be grand if the West followed suit and allowed ISIS to roam and conquer as they wish?

a351 said:

Then surely the reasonable reaction is to cater to their demands. Wouldn't it be grand if the West followed suit and allowed ISIS to roam and conquer as they wish?

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ISIS would never had existed if we didnt invade and occupy Iraq in the first place. And there are many other factions fighting (Iran, Hezbollah, Assad, the Kurds, etc.) them so we do not need to get involved.

PoS said:

ISIS would never had existed if we didnt invade and occupy Iraq in the first place.

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:roll: Our mere presence did not spawn these actors from nothing, our exit from an country with untenable defenses simply allowed them a vacuum in which to flourish.

And there are many other factions fighting (Iran, Hezbollah, Assad, the Kurds, etc.) them so we do not need to get involved.

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The Kurds without are help are clearly not capable, while the remaining 3 actors are nearly as unsavory as the enemy in question. The "None of our business approach" simply isn't a viable option.

PoS said:

ISIS would never had existed if we didnt invade and occupy Iraq in the first place. And there are many other factions fighting (Iran, Hezbollah, Assad, the Kurds, etc.) them so we do not need to get involved.

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when I tell the same things I am labelled as hater you know

PoS said:

ISIS would never had existed if we didnt invade and occupy Iraq in the first place.

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I think it is a mistake to claim that IS is the result of American action, particularly since its base is in Syria. The US didn't create this religious barbarism, the Koran did. And its spread is due to the Arab Spring not the Iraq war.

Fletch said:

I think it is a mistake to claim that IS is the result of American action, particularly since its base is in Syria. The US didn't create this religious barbarism, the Koran did. And its spread is due to the Arab Spring not the Iraq war.

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your base is in incirlik in Turkey too. and we believe no bird can fly in this region without the permission of USA.the western policies are always associated with the political islam.EL QAEDA taliban etc ,these were aided and supported by USA against russians.arabian spring was created and manipulated by th west too.lets have enough information about it before teaching

Fletch said:

I think it is a mistake to claim that IS is the result of American action, particularly since its base is in Syria. The US didn't create this religious barbarism, the Koran did. And its spread is due to the Arab Spring not the Iraq war.

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And anyone who strictly upholds the Bible's ways would also seem barbaric. I agree the religion is at fault, just for some reasons as yet un-resolved, it seems there are more Muslims preferring the strict interpretation of their religion, while most involved in other religions seemed to bend with the tides of society's modernization.

So yes, it is the Kuran, but it could also be and has been the Bible. The question becomes what is it about these individuals and groups that they choose to use their faith as a means to power and control? I don't know the answer. It seems strange to me that many who bemoan Islam and the Kuran are some of the ones that are desirous of nearly the same level of religious control in the western world not recognizing that our civility has increased due to NOT, and NOT SO SERIOUSLY, and NO LONGER using religious tenets and dogma to govern.

Summerwind said:

And anyone who strictly upholds the Bible's ways would also seem barbaric. I agree the religion is at fault, just for some reasons as yet un-resolved, it seems there are more Muslims preferring the strict interpretation of their religion, while most involved in other religions seemed to bend with the tides of society's modernization.

So yes, it is the Kuran, but it could also be and has been the Bible. The question becomes what is it about these individuals and groups that they choose to use their faith as a means to power and control? I don't know the answer. It seems strange to me that many who bemoan Islam and the Kuran are some of the ones that are desirous of nearly the same level of religious control in the western world not recognizing that our civility has increased due to NOT, and NOT SO SERIOUSLY, and NO LONGER using religious tenets and dogma to govern.

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The difference is that Christianity and the West went through an enlightenment period that allowed them to emerge from the Dark Ages. Islam has made no such journey. Until they do, there will always be barbarism associated with that particular faith. Handwringing and blaming the West misses the larger point.

a351 said:

:roll: Our mere presence did not spawn these actors from nothing, our exit from an country with untenable defenses simply allowed them a vacuum in which to flourish.

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When we took out Saddam Hussein it created a power vacuum that enabled ISIS to grow so yes our mere presence in Iraq was instrumental in its creation. To deny that is to deny fact.

The Kurds without are help are clearly not capable, while the remaining 3 actors are nearly as unsavory as the enemy in question. The "None of our business approach" simply isn't a viable option.

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Well if you keep insisting that we meddle in places where we shouldnt be then expect more attacks to happen. Its as simple as that.

I wonder why Switzerland doesn't get attacked by Muslims...

Fletch said:

I think it is a mistake to claim that IS is the result of American action, particularly since its base is in Syria. The US didn't create this religious barbarism, the Koran did. And its spread is due to the Arab Spring not the Iraq war.

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ISIS started out as an Iraqi insurgent unit fighting us after we occupied the country. Look it up. If we didn't invade there would be no ISIS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#Foundation.2C_1999.E2.80.932006

Fletch said:

The difference is that Christianity and the West went through an enlightenment period that allowed them to emerge from the Dark Ages. Islam has made no such journey. Until they do, there will always be barbarism associated with that particular faith. Handwringing and blaming the West misses the larger point.

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No. The difference is that no one is held to the strict interpretation of a religious text in the west. That's it. Nothing more or less. And in order to not waylay the thread further... if you would like to carry this on, please start a thread in Philosophy Forum and it can be continued in the appropriate place.

PoS said:

ISIS would never had existed if we didnt invade and occupy Iraq in the first place. And there are many other factions fighting (Iran, Hezbollah, Assad, the Kurds, etc.) them so we do not need to get involved.

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I pretty much agree with your points. But I would also opine that the invasion in Afghanistan alone would have most likely produced the same outcome.

For every radical like Osama bin Laden (before and during his rise to fame), there have been, and is, hundreds, if not thousands, more islamic radicals in that region who would have seen America's sending troops into the Middle East (anywhere) as a terroristic against their countries/region.

And I really believe that if it hadn't been bin Ladin, somebody or group in the Middle East would have managed to launch assaults within the US - because of substantially increasing Western influence inundating Middle East nations. And why would we NOT expect some people in the Middle East to not respond in the very same manners that we've seen Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and now ISIS. Over the last 50 or 60 years, a lot of people in the Middle East believe Western countries are trying to overthrow their political structures, cultures, religion, and etc.

But ISIS is different than the other two groups. ISIS was founded approximately 16 years ago (2 years prior to 9-11) by the Jordanian extremist Abu Musab al-Zaqawri. Most of the world has been aware of al-Zaqawri at some level, but not ISIS per se. ISIS (or the group now known as ISIS) has been studiously watching all of the events that involve foreign nations (mostly western nations) flooding into various regions of the Middle East. They've analyzed the shortcomings/failures (and successes) of Al Qaeda and the Taliban for over 16 plus years. They been carefully planning and gathering substantial resources clearly beyond that of Al Qaeda and the Taliban. And they know that money talks and bull**** walks. They've been able to enlist men from around the world because the have the financial resources to attract them. ISIS isn't seeking revenge - they want a reckoning. And they're going to take their fight outside of the borders of the Middle East.

Who in the Middle East has the kind of money to support ISIS's emergence as a power to be reckoned with? We all know who. Certainly Saudi Arabia has the monetary resources - and probably they've encouraged other oil producing neighbors to add to the till.

The original ID of a Syrian refugee was based on a passport found on a body. Passports can be faked. There are already reports of faked passports on people trying to pose as Syrians who aren't even from Syria, but who want to migrate to Europe all the same.

I for one don't trust the French government whatsoever to be honest. Hollande practically declared war before any details were known, it's clear what the French government wants to do next. There should be thorough public inquiry. Chances of that happening though? Next to nil. Not with the amount of nationalism and war mongering coming out of the French media right now. Same ****, different pile.

PoS said:

ISIS would never had existed if we didnt invade and occupy Iraq in the first place. And there are many other factions fighting (Iran, Hezbollah, Assad, the Kurds, etc.) them so we do not need to get involved.

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It is grossly illogical to believe what ISIS is doing, the methods they are employing - ala beheadings, crucifixions, suicide bombings, etc. and the people they are targeting, Christians, Jews, westerners in general, innocents virtually all... are purely the result of us invading Iraq. I mean, it's just absurd to connect the dots that way - ESPECIALLY since their imams and military leaders point directly and specifically to their Koran for justification for their barbarism. Moreover, these same sentiments have been fomenting and festering for decades now, loooong before the US ever even imagined entering Iraq. Their hatred of Israel is millenia old and their hatred of the US and the West is old as well - and has nothing to do with anything we've done to them and everything to do with their religion and ideology. Period. Indeed, our reasons for entering Iraq in the first place was the result of their barbarism on 911 - barbarism they'd tried years before with the first bombing of the WTC.

EdwinWillers said:

It is grossly illogical to believe what ISIS is doing, the methods they are employing - ala beheadings, crucifixions, suicide bombings, etc. and the people they are targeting, Christians, Jews, westerners in general, innocents virtually all... are purely the result of us invading Iraq. I mean, it's just absurd to connect the dots that way - ESPECIALLY since their imams and military leaders point directly and specifically to their Koran for justification for their barbarism. Moreover, these same sentiments have been fomenting and festering for decades now, loooong before the US ever even imagined entering Iraq. Their hatred of Israel is millenia old and their hatred of the US and the West is old as well - and has nothing to do with anything we've done to them and everything to do with their religion and ideology. Period. Indeed, our reasons for entering Iraq in the first place was the result of their barbarism on 911 - barbarism they'd tried years before with the first bombing of the WTC.

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I dont disagree with your points but nevertheless Saddam Hussein kept them bottled up and their hostility to the West has only inreased because of our meddling.

EdwinWillers said:

It is grossly illogical to believe what ISIS is doing, the methods they are employing - ala beheadings, crucifixions, suicide bombings, etc. and the people they are targeting, Christians, Jews, westerners in general, innocents virtually all... are purely the result of us invading Iraq. I mean, it's just absurd to connect the dots that way - ESPECIALLY since their imams and military leaders point directly and specifically to their Koran for justification for their barbarism. Moreover, these same sentiments have been fomenting and festering for decades now, loooong before the US ever even imagined entering Iraq. Their hatred of Israel is millenia old and their hatred of the US and the West is old as well - and has nothing to do with anything we've done to them and everything to do with their religion and ideology. Period. Indeed, our reasons for entering Iraq in the first place was the result of their barbarism on 911 - barbarism they'd tried years before with the first bombing of the WTC.

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Israel didn't exist until 1949. Additionally, Iran wasn't a threat to the US until we overthrew their democratically elected leader and installed the shah. Since then, our relationship has been sour. How would you like a country that overthrows the leader you elected? Our meddling in the Middle East has done more harm than good.

PoS said:

ISIS would never had existed if we didnt invade and occupy Iraq in the first place. And there are many other factions fighting (Iran, Hezbollah, Assad, the Kurds, etc.) them so we do not need to get involved.

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Don't be ridiculous. Their stated goal is to usher in the return of their Messiah by causing Armageddon.

We don't need to get involved? We just look the other way while they butcher civilians in western nations? What in the actual ****?

PoS said:

I dont disagree with your points but nevertheless Saddam Hussein kept them bottled up and their hostility to the West has only inreased because of our meddling.

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Well, I accept that our meddling has played a role, certainly. But it's important to understand that the role our meddling has played didn't (doesn't) create the problem, it only serves as a trigger to release it - it's an excuse to act, an excuse with an underlying predisposition to act.

I mean think about it - who beheads people for "meddling?" Who crucifies children for "meddling?" Who hijacks four airliners to fly them into buildings for "meddling?" Such barbarism isn't remotely proportional to "meddling" - so it's not as simple as that.

If you've been raised and taught to believe everyone who doesn't believe what you believe is evil, then when someone who doesn't believe what you believe does something evil, you believe your belief is validated.

If you've been raised and taught to believe everyone who doesn't believe what you believe is evil and must either be converted to your way of believing or be summarily executed on the spot, that's what you're predisposed to do. All you need is an excuse, an opportunity to carry it out. Indeed, the more fervently you believe that, the more eager you become to find such opportunities.

le bouffon said:

Israel didn't exist until 1949.

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The modern, UN-recognized "State" of Israel began in 1948, not 1949.

However, Israel, formerly Jacob, brother of Esau, son of Isaac, grandson of Abraham is the generally recognized namesake of the Jewish people for a number of millenia now. History is replete with references to Israel, not just in the bible but in many non-biblical and archeological records.

EdwinWillers said:

The modern, UN-recognized "State" of Israel began in 1948, not 1949.

However, Israel, formerly Jacob, brother of Esau, son of Isaac, grandson of Abraham is the generally recognized namesake of the Jewish people for a number of millenia now. History is replete with references to Israel, not just in the bible but in many non-biblical and archeological records.

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The Jewish lands, yes. It wasn't Israel. They're not the same thing. The lands of Ancient Egypt are not Egypt, etc. Also, Israel is recognized by many countries today, as of 1949.