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Australia: Two Dead In Police Station Shooting

Hatuey said:
You made the claim, you come up with the figures. Also, while you're at it be sure to separate gang related shootings from non-gang related shootings for both countries. I'll be waiting.
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Sure....

Approx 1.5 million active gang members in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_population
Approx 10k gang members in Australia (combined total)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_in_Australia

Some gang specific stats:
· 59% of all homicides in 2001 in Los Angeles and
· 53% in Chicago were gang related, there was a total of 698 gang related homicides in there two cities combined where as 130 other cities with population of at least 100,000 with gang problems reported having a total of 637 homicides between them

Source: U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, National Youth Gang Survey Trends from 1996 to 2000, by Arlen Egley, Jr. and Aline K. Major.

–“National Vital Statistics Report, which is much more accurate than the data cited in the article, confirms that 80% of violence is gang related.”
Gun Rights, Gun Control, and Frequently Asked Questions

And its not hard to see where the vast majority of the violent crime is occuring, and for that matter...who is committing those violent crimes.
http://www.businessinsider.com/most-dangerous-cities-in-america-2013-6#25-milwaukee-wis-1

Conversely:
* There have been 39 people shot in Sydney this year, most related to an ongoing bikie war.
* Conservative estimates say there are more than a quarter-of-a-million illegal firearms in Australia.
* Gun ownership in Australia is back at pre-Port Arthur massacre levels.
* Carrying a gun is becoming more common and ingrained in outlaw culture.
* Gun amnesties barely put a dent in the number of weapons.
* Innocent people are being caught up in gun battles.
* There has been a steady increase in gun-related crimes over the past seven years
Police figures show that in the 2012-2013 financial year 9506 illegal firearms were seized, 729 of them handguns.
Handguns, particularly the semi-automatic Glock, are the criminal's weapon of choice.
Figures from the Australian Bureau of Statistics show that firearms are being used more often in crime.
In the seven years from 2005 to 2012, gun murders across Australia almost doubled. The incidence of guns used in kidnappings trebled. The total number of crimes in which a firearm was used rose from 823 in 2005, to 1217 in 2012, an increase of 47 per cent.
Is Australia staring down the barrel of a gun crisis?
http://www.abs.gov.au/

Estimates in Australia are that there are under 10k gang members...most of them outlaw biker gangs. And yes...as stated above...most of the violent crime and illegal gun ownership in Australia is related to gangs. The 'good' news' statistically is that the number of gang members is on the rise, with Asian and Middle eastern gangs starting to get into the mix with an increased influence in the drug trades.

So...today...they are pikers...but tomorrow...
 
VanceMack said:
....
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None of this has anything to do with what I asked. As per your info dump:

Do We Have a Gang Problem or a Gun Problem? | Armed With Reason

This line is taken from the following link. If you follow the source to that 80% citation in the linked source, it will take you to a CDC study that doesn’t even mention gangs. I talked with gun scholar Dr. Phillip J. Cook about this citation, and he confirms that it is just made up out of thin air. There’s precisely zero evidence to support it. The fact that conservative websites have to lie about their citations in order to make a point is all too damning.
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When the first link I take a look at is confirmed as made up by the people who supposedly wrote the original article, I tend to look at the rest with skepticism.
 
I'll just go on record as saying it's pretty poor form to dance on the grave of one of my Countrymen here. I wonder how many people are aware that Australia is the only country to have served alongside the United States in every major conflict since WWII? Don't let that stop you from trying to push whatever idiotic point you are trying to make here though. Disgusting.

We don't have a gun culture here. The average Australian has never owned a firearm nor has any desire to do so and we have never had a constitutional right to own firearms. It is beyond ridiculous to try and equate our two countries when discussing gun control and it's ridiculous and incredibly dishonest to even attempt to draw any comparisons.

I've been a paramedic for going on ten years, the last 5 as a critical care paramedic and I live and work in one of the largest Regional areas in Australia. In that time I can count on one hand how many firearm related incidents I have attended. Two of them were suicides. You do the math and leave my Country and her citizens out of your crap.

My thoughts are with the families and loved ones of those involved in yesterdays shooting.
 
Hatuey said:
None of this has anything to do with what I asked. As per your info dump:

Do We Have a Gang Problem or a Gun Problem? | Armed With Reason



When the first link I take a look at is confirmed as made up by the people who supposedly wrote the original article, I tend to look at the rest with skepticism.
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Being blunt, Im not sure what you are arguing or what your point is.
https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/...nce-of-Gang-Problems#prevalenceyouthgangstudy
Prevalence of Gang Problems by Area Type, 1996–2012
Year Cities With Populations of
50,000 or More
(Larger Cities) Suburban Counties Cities With Populations Between
2,500 and 49,999
(Smaller Cities) Rural Counties
1996 86.2 59.4 37.9 26.3
1997 87.0 58.9 37.3 25.0
1998 83.7 49.6 34.4 21.5
1999 81.1 47.1 29.7 17.6
2000 76.7 40.9 25.6 12.0
2001 74.9 34.5 22.3 10.9
2002 76.7 37.9 27.3 12.3
2003 81.2 40.4 30.6 10.9
2004 81.5 41.6 27.4 13.8
2005 83.1 49.6 32.9 16.9
2006 86.4 51.0 32.5 14.9
2007 85.7 50.3 34.8 15.3
2008 86.2 45.4 31.1 14.4
2009 86.3 51.8 32.9 17.0
2010 86.1 49.9 33.6 14.1
2011 85.0 49.9 29.5 13.6
2012 85.6 49.5 25.4 16.0
 
VanceMack said:
Being blunt, Im not sure what you are arguing or what your point is.
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Simply put: Your conclusion is is not supported by the evidence we have. In your source, it states that from 1996 to 2012 "gang prevalence" stayed at a relatively steady +80% in cities. However, violence in the US is lower today than in 1978:

Crime Rates in U.S. Drop to 1970s levels

Violent crime in the U.S. fell 4.4 percent last year to the lowest level in decades, the FBI announced Monday.

In 2013, there were 1.16 million violent crimes, the lowest amount since the 1978’s 1.09 million violent crimes, Reuters reports.

All types of violent crimes experienced decline last year, with rape dropping 6.3 percent, murder and non-negligent manslaughter dropping 4.4 percent and robbery dropping 2.8 percent.
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And this goes for cities too:

FBI Crime Report Shows America Is Still Getting Safer - Business Insider

In 2013, the number of murders in America dropped 4.4% to 14,196 — down signifcantly from its peak of 24,703 in 1991. The drop in homicides is even more obvious when you look at individual cities that once had bad reputations.

New York recorded 2,245 homicides at its peak in 1990 but only 328 by 2014. Los Angeles had 2,589 homicides in 1992 but only 254 last year.
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So if gangs have such a huge impact on our urban violence (as you've suggested), how is it possible that our crime has gone down while gang prevalence has remained virtually identical across the board? The numbers suggest that gang prevalence does not necessarily mean that there will be violence or that gangs are the huge violent problem that you seem to suggest they are. That's not to say that they're not a problem. They just don't seem to be the type of problem that you're just suggesting.
 
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Hatuey said:
Simply put: Your conclusion is is not supported by the evidence we have. In your source, it states that from 1996 to 2012 "gang prevalence" stayed at a relatively steady +80% in cities. However, violence in the US is lower today than in 1978:

Crime Rates in U.S. Drop to 1970s levels



And this goes for cities too:

FBI Crime Report Shows America Is Still Getting Safer - Business Insider



So if gangs have such a huge impact on our urban violence (as you've suggested), how is it possible that our crime has gone down while gang prevalence has remained virtually identical across the board? The numbers suggest that gang prevalence does not necessarily mean that there will be violence or that gangs are the huge violent problem that you seem to suggest they are. That's not to say that they're not a problem. They just don't seem to be the type of problem that you're just suggesting.
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Do you have a problem with this source?
https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/...nce-of-Gang-Problems#prevalenceyouthgangstudy
Those are the percentage of crime for all major cities in the US (Described as Cities With Populations of 50,000 or More)
(Larger Cities)
2003 81.2
2004 81.5
2005 83.1
2006 86.4
2007 85.7
2008 86.2
2009 86.3
2010 86.1
2011 85.0
2012 85.6

You asked for the numbers of gang members in the US vs Australia. Check. You asked for who was committing the crimes. Check. Like I said...I really dont know what you are arguing or for that matter, why...except maybe you feel like its your duty for some weird unknown reason.
 
VanceMack said:
Do you have a problem with this source?
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Good grief, here, from your own source which you REALLY don't have an understanding of:

https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Survey-Analysis/Measuring-the-Extent-of-Gang-Problems

The total number of gang homicides reported by respondents in the NYGS sample averaged nearly 2,000 annually from 2007 to 2012. During roughly the same time period (2007 to 2011), the FBI estimated, on average, more than 15,500 homicides across the United States These estimates suggest that gang-related homicides typically accounted for around 13 percent of all homicides annually.
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Gangs with a prevalent of 80% in most cities and statistically unchanging figures for the years in question, with violent crime in general going down, while committing only 13% of all murders. Why are you still stating that the problem we need to deal with is gangs?
 
Are they trying to mimic USA?
 
Hatuey said:
Good grief, here, from your own source which you REALLY don't have an understanding of:

https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Survey-Analysis/Measuring-the-Extent-of-Gang-Problems



Gangs with a prevalent of 80% in most cities and statistically unchanging figures for the years in question, with violent crime in general going down, while committing only 13% of all murders. Why are you still stating that the problem we need to deal with is gangs?
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Ah. I see. Looking back, we are arguing two different points. I said violent violent crimes, and you want focus only on murders.

The charts very clearly show...gangs are responsible for 80%+ of ALL crimes in all major cities with a population over 50k. SO...why do we need to deal with gangs? Are you serious?
 
VanceMack said:
Being blunt, Im not sure what you are arguing or what your point is.
https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/...nce-of-Gang-Problems#prevalenceyouthgangstudy
Prevalence of Gang Problems by Area Type, 1996–2012
Year Cities With Populations of
50,000 or More
(Larger Cities) Suburban Counties Cities With Populations Between
2,500 and 49,999
(Smaller Cities) Rural Counties
1996 86.2 59.4 37.9 26.3
1997 87.0 58.9 37.3 25.0
1998 83.7 49.6 34.4 21.5
1999 81.1 47.1 29.7 17.6
2000 76.7 40.9 25.6 12.0
2001 74.9 34.5 22.3 10.9
2002 76.7 37.9 27.3 12.3
2003 81.2 40.4 30.6 10.9
2004 81.5 41.6 27.4 13.8
2005 83.1 49.6 32.9 16.9
2006 86.4 51.0 32.5 14.9
2007 85.7 50.3 34.8 15.3
2008 86.2 45.4 31.1 14.4
2009 86.3 51.8 32.9 17.0
2010 86.1 49.9 33.6 14.1
2011 85.0 49.9 29.5 13.6
2012 85.6 49.5 25.4 16.0
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All this talk about gun control in the USA bores me. Reason shall prevail when two maxims are realized:

1. The extremist leadership of the NRA is done away with;

2. The USA public in general has had enough.
 
Glowpun said:
All this talk about gun control in the USA bores me. Reason shall prevail when two maxims are realized:

1. The extremist leadership of the NRA is done away with;

2. The USA public in general has had enough.
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Beautiful thing about the US, is that there is this process in place that you can follow and it will allow you to amend the Constitution. Jump on that.
 
VanceMack said:
Ah. I see. Looking back, we are arguing two different points.
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Yes, I was discussing the topic of the thread and murders. You were discussing... I'm not sure... made up statistics from sketchy sources, half of which don't really say what you want them to say?
 
Hatuey said:
Yes, I was discussing the topic of the thread and murders. You were discussing... I'm not sure... made up statistics from sketchy sources, half of which don't really say what you want them to say?
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when it starts happening every other week you will have a point...

"The point is very relevant. Look...our populations are radically different. Our incidents of crime...not so much. Based on sheer numbers, there are outliers. A law abiding citizen going to the zoo is an outlier. In both the US and Australia. Criminals and thugs committing crimes...very normal in both countries. We have a larger gang problem. but where there are gangs there are gun crimes, regardless of where you live or what laws you have."

The comment was very relevant to the OP. Australia doesnt have near the instances of gun crimes that the US because our populations are radically different. Now...you may feel free to continue to jump down whatever rabbit hole you like. You may also continue to ignore the relevance of gangs in regard to violent crimes, crimes committed with firearms, and yes...even murders (BTW...that relationship plays out in Australia as well). You can cling to the murder rate only, though why you think you are scoring points there I have no idea. You are defending a position that in a country of 330 million, a group that represents 1.050 million out of that 330 million is accountable for at least a fifth of all gun related homicides like thats not a big deal. You can continue to argue that the fact that gangs commit 80+ percent of all criminal acts including violent crimes in cities with populations over 50k isnt significant.

At the end of the day...I still dont know what it is you are arguing about. I dont think you do either.
 
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