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Thread: Dick Cheney Would Torture Again

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    Re: Dick Cheney Would Torture Again

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    First, I only posted articles that outlined US hypocrisy on the issue. I NEVER claimed people were hanged (BTW - your laundry is hung; people are hanged) for waterboarding. I do make the contention that waterboarding is torture AND is a war crime. I do not make the contention that Japanese soldiers were hanged for such. Some more cites...

    Context of '1947: Japanese Soldier Who Waterboarded US Civilian Convicted of War Crime'
    History supports McCain's stance on waterboarding | PolitiFact
    Waterboarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    However, since now I have seven cites for which the best you can do is tell us your impressions. In a real debate, your depressions are worth squat. Let's see a cite supporting your claim.
    So you disagree with the conclusion of your sources? Interesting tactic.

    On the above, you have posted one article about waterboarding CIVILIANS which is indeed a war crime (as is waterboarding a uniformed combatant). Both are against the Geneva Convention. But that article states that those breaking the GC in this way were sentenced to 15 years hard labor (which is ALSO illegal to do to civilians in wartime, BTW). This contradicts McCain's statement and says nothing about whether the use of waterboarding on non-uniformed combatants is legal or not.

    The second Article is contradicted by the first. McCain's statement states that Japanese captives were hung for waterboarding, this is a lie.

    The third is a horribly befuddled Wiki entry in which they site a WaPo article about waterboarding that makes no mention of the guilty being hung, which again doesn't support McCain's statement that they hung Japanese for waterboarding.

    What McCain has done is like arguing that a man who robs a convenience store, punches a customer and murders the clerk who is then executed was executed for punching someone. IT is a common tactic for those wanting to turn a logical legal argument into an emotional cluster-F where the truth is tertiary to emotion and political expedience.

    Waterboarding is a crime by the Geneva Convention if used on protected classes of prisoners (civilians and uniformed combatants) and that is the reason some Japanese where sentenced to hard labor for water boarding. It is a conditional crime like many in the GC that is used to protect classes of POWs.
    Last edited by jmotivator; 12-16-14 at 07:07 AM.
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    Re: Dick Cheney Would Torture Again

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    And how would you separate the innocent from the guilty without violating the U.S. Constitution and international agreements that the USA has sworn to uphold?

    Fill us in.

    My guess is that you're not really worried about all of that and your plan is to just kill'em all and let God sort 'em out.

    Did I hit the nail on the head?
    How do you separate the innocent from the guilty?

    Well first you have to be able to discern what evil is and how to effectively deal with it. That pretty much leaves far left liberals out of the equation. Perhaps the left should familiarize themselves with the Word of God instead of promoting Sodom and Gomorrah.

    Then come back and we'll go from there.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: Dick Cheney Would Torture Again

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Again, that is a false representation
    1. Yes, it is a crime to waterboard uniformed members of a military during a conflict. You aren't even supposed to interrogate them, really. Name, rank, date of birth, etc.
    2. That being said, no one got 15 years of hard labor for waterboarding - they got it for a host of crimes such as murder, human rights, atrocities, and the like - we threw everything in and that's what they got.
    Good catch. Also, it is worth noting that there are various forms of waterboarding. It is not clear whether the CIA used the same tactics as that Japanese guy.

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    Re: Dick Cheney Would Torture Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    How do you separate the innocent from the guilty?
    Not necessary.
    Everybody's guilty of something.
    If you torture captives long enough, they'll confess to whatever you want them to be guilty of.

    Well first you have to be able to discern what evil is and how to effectively deal with it. That pretty much leaves far left liberals out of the equation. Perhaps the left should familiarize themselves with the Word of God instead of promoting Sodom and Gomorrah.
    Hmmm.....you, the Taliban and all jihadists agree on this point.
    Strange bedfellows, huh?

    Then come back and we'll go from there.
    I'm pretty sure we're done here.
    No matter how cynical I become toward politicians, it's never enough.

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    Re: Dick Cheney Would Torture Again

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    That's a ridiculously unfair overgeneralization. And I'm pretty sure that you know this.
    I pay no attention to liberal comments on honor or the like. They are so far out there its too tedious to set them strainght

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    Re: Dick Cheney Would Torture Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The White House had legal counsel to inform them of what the law is and what the guidelines should be. They did this.

    As well leading Democrats were aware at the time and were fully informed of the situation but registered no complaints.

    It is your opinion that the people involved in your security network committed a crime, despite what was said at the time and what the lawyers and the politicians involved agreed to. Now, a decade later and for political purposes only, they put together this ridiculous one-sided document and play their followers as fools.

    You should really wise up to this game playing and put the interests of your country ahead of partisan politics . If genuine wrong-doing has been done then those responsible should be punished, but first recognize the difference between politics and the truth.
    1. Having attorney's tell you that you are within the law does not make you within the law. A legal opinion is just an opinion; it doesn't mean anything other than you had someone's opinion. The Bush administration opinion shopped (found someone that told them what they wanted to hear. They got what they were paying for. Having that opinion does not exempt them from the consequences of being outside the law. The court determines if they are outside the law, not their counsel.

    2. Democrats and others have been outraged about torture for 10 years. This is nothing new. Do you need cites to remind you of what an informed person should know?

    3. I do put my country first. But you and I live in a different country. The country I live in is great. We live by ideals with great respect for all men. We were founded on the notion that men were created equal and should live free. We sent our sons to fight for that freedom and many died attaining it. We stand free and brave, willing to die to remain free. You live in an alternate universe of America where you would rather give up freedoms and sacrifice fundamental rights of other so you don't die. While I live in the land of the free and brave, you live in thee land of the tortured and weak. You followed the weak leaders that overreacted to 9/11 and told you we had to change our basic fabric so you would not die. You bought the lie while I remain true to the truth of America: I uphold the greatness of its moral high ground. I will take the risk of death from terrorist attack rather than watch my country lower itself to a third world dictatorship where all of its citizens live in fear.

    Sorry, but its the Bush Administration that hated American freedoms. They found them inconvenient to their purpose and, because they were weak, chose to run rampant over them... and too many fools let them. The real America and real Americans would NEVER torture. We would continue to hold the moral high ground, regardless of the cost.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 12-17-14 at 02:01 AM.

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    Re: Dick Cheney Would Torture Again

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    1. Having attorney's tell you that you are within the law does not make you within the law. A legal opinion is just an opinion; it doesn't mean anything other than you had someone's opinion. The Bush administration opinion shopped (found someone that told them what they wanted to hear. They got what they were paying for. Having that opinion does not exempt them from the consequences of being outside the law. The court determines if they are outside the law, not their counsel.
    In fact Eric Holder and the DOJ investigated these 'torture' charges in 2012 and found no evidence of any wrongdoing or illegalities. Just a few days ago they said they would not re-open the investigation. Justice Department will not reopen torture inquiry

    The Bush Administration did not 'shop around' for Holder's opinion or his decision. Holder is also a Democrat hack, not a Republican hack.

    2. Democrats and others have been outraged about torture for 10 years. This is nothing new. Do you need cites to remind you of what an informed person should know?
    See above, particularly regarding the 'informed' part.

    3. I do put my country first. But you and I live in a different country. The country I live in is great. We live by ideals with great respect for all men. We were founded on the notion that men were created equal and should live free. We sent our sons to fight for that freedom and many died attaining it. We stand free and brave, willing to die to remain free. You live in an alternate universe of America where you would rather give up freedoms and sacrifice fundamental rights of other so you don't die. While I live in the land of the free and brave, you live in thee land of the tortured and weak. You followed the weak leaders that overreacted to 9/11 and told you we had to change our basic fabric so you would not die. You bought the lie while I remain true to the truth of America: I uphold the greatness of its moral high ground. I will take the risk of death from terrorist attack rather than watch my country lower itself to a third world dictatorship where all of its citizens live in fear. Sorry, but its the Bush Administration that hated American freedoms. They found them inconvenient to their purpose and, because they were weak, chose to run rampant over them... and too many fools let them. The real America and real Americans would NEVER torture. We would continue to hold the moral high ground, regardless of the cost.
    Sounds like a great movie script. Do I see Tom Hanks in the starring role?

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    Re: Dick Cheney Would Torture Again

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    So you disagree with the conclusion of your sources? Interesting tactic.

    On the above, you have posted one article about waterboarding CIVILIANS which is indeed a war crime (as is waterboarding a uniformed combatant). Both are against the Geneva Convention. But that article states that those breaking the GC in this way were sentenced to 15 years hard labor (which is ALSO illegal to do to civilians in wartime, BTW). This contradicts McCain's statement and says nothing about whether the use of waterboarding on non-uniformed combatants is legal or not.

    The second Article is contradicted by the first. McCain's statement states that Japanese captives were hung for waterboarding, this is a lie.

    The third is a horribly befuddled Wiki entry in which they site a WaPo article about waterboarding that makes no mention of the guilty being hung, which again doesn't support McCain's statement that they hung Japanese for waterboarding.

    What McCain has done is like arguing that a man who robs a convenience store, punches a customer and murders the clerk who is then executed was executed for punching someone. IT is a common tactic for those wanting to turn a logical legal argument into an emotional cluster-F where the truth is tertiary to emotion and political expedience.

    Waterboarding is a crime by the Geneva Convention if used on protected classes of prisoners (civilians and uniformed combatants) and that is the reason some Japanese where sentenced to hard labor for water boarding. It is a conditional crime like many in the GC that is used to protect classes of POWs.


    "Mr. Motivator, here is a dime. Call your mother and tell her there are serious doubts you will ever be a lawyer"

    ... to be a lawyer, you must argue against the point presented, not against some strawman that you create. You are not arguing against me, as you just put up a bunch of arguments affirming what I said, which is that waterboarding is a war crime. You were arguing against what you believed I said, because you did not take the time to read what I wrote.

    Speaking of not reading, you do realize your rant about what you thought McCain said (which appears to be that you think McCain was saying Japanese soldier were executed for waterboarding) is off base as well. What McCain said (from one of the articles I posted) was....

    "...."I forgot to mention last night that following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding...,"

    McCain pointed out that they were hanged and that waterboarding was just ONE of the crimes for which they were convicted....

    Now, as to your convenience analogy, a much more pertinent one would be the CIA torture program. While useful information was obtained from those IN the torture program, there is no link established between the torture and the discovery of useful information. The "informers" just happen to be members of both universes....

    From John Brennan ( Page 4: TRANSCRIPT: CIA Director John Brennan Addresses Senate's Report on CIA Interrogation Program - ABC News )

    "....As to the issues on which we part ways with the committee. I have already stated that our reviews indicate that the detention and interrogation program produced useful intelligence that helped the United States thwart attack plans, capture terrorists and save lives. But let me be clear: We have not concluded that it was the use of EITs within that program that allowed us to obtain useful information from detainees subjected to them. The cause and effect relationship between the use of EITs and useful information subsequently provided by the detainee is, in my view, unknowable....."

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    Re: Dick Cheney Would Torture Again

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    Wrong.

    The USA hanged Japanese soldiers after WWII because they waterboarded American POWs. That's a fact.

    Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
    The sickeningly brutal water torture some of those 990 Japanese war criminals the U.S. Navy hanged for inflicting on prisoners was often done not to gain information, but just out of rage, or for sadistic sport. And often it was fatal. We know about it both from evidence introduced in the Far East Tribunals, the records of which have been published online, and from many separate accounts from interviews with prisoners in different places who witnessed them firsthand. So many hundreds or even thousands of these water tortures were inflicted on prisoners that they obviously varied somewhat as to details, but they typically went something like this:

    A man would be seized and tied on his back to a bench, log or whatever else was handy. Plugs or sticks would be jammed up the victim's nostrils, often so violently as to bloody or even break his nose. Then water--usually a gallon or more--would be poured into his mouth through a funnel until his belly was fully distended. Then the torturer would repeatedly swing a bat or club against the belly, full force. All this created so much pressure on the diaphragm that the victim would begin to suffocate. Some died of heart attacks, or asphyxiated as they choked on their own vomit. The lucky ones were let up when the blueness of their fingernails showed they were right at the brink of death.

    That is nothing whatever like what the U.S. interrogators did, which was the very same thing that had already been done by the U.S. military to thousands of our servicemen as part their SERE training to endure capture. The detailed procedure is set out in government documents that are available online. It involved placing the subject on his back, with his feet higher than his head so he could not drown. A doctor was always in the room. A cloth was placed over the man's mouth and nose, and a few ounces of water then poured on it.

    Each of these trials lasted only about twenty seconds, only a certain number could be performed in any one session, and only so many sessions were allowed in any one day. This procedure was the most severe of a dozen or so enhanced interrogation techniques used. Our Justice Dept. painstakingly analyzed all these techniques, including the waterboarding procedure, and found they complied with all U.S. laws concerning torture.

    I have seen this same disgusting slander against this country quite a few times. I don't know if it stems from simple ignorance, or malice against the U.S.--and I don't care. It helps the jihadists who want us all dead just as much either way. It relies on the false rhetorical trick of claiming two completely different things are the same because they can be described by the same word. It is like saying that a hangnail is the same as a broken neck, because they both are injuries, or that a house cat and a whale are the same because they are both animals.

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    Re: Dick Cheney Would Torture Again

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    This fetish with Cheney is amazing.
    I doubt anyone would be giving Cheney a second thought if he hadn't been on Meet the Press the other day trying to defend torture. However, your incessant attacks on liberals says a lot about your fetish. lol Or perhaps its your infatuation with Cheney that you feel the need to thwart any criticism of him.

    On Meet the Press, Cheney said he didn't care about torturing innocent people as long as his objective was met. That sure sounds like he was using torture more for revenge than the actual need to extract meaningful information. A few more interviews like that and there will be little doubt left that he's a war criminal.

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