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Walmart Threatened Workers For Trying To Organize, Judge Rules

Just curious, you don't think that jobs each have a definitive and virtually quantifiable worth to whomever is paying the salaries, and that the higher valued workers don't get paid more? I've worked in Corporate America since 1984, and every place I've ever worked, that was and still is exactly the mentality. It isn't a child's way of thinking....big adults think it too.

Workers, almost by definition, provide greater value than their pay.

No, actually, there isn't a single, definitive, quantifiable worth to someone's labor.

I've never heard of an organization called "Corporate America." And no, where you worked, this was never the mentality. The mentality of your boss was "how little can I get away with paying this person." If they could get you to do twice as much work for the same pay, they'd absolutely do it.
 
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Workers, almost by definition, provide greater value than their pay.

No, actually, there isn't a single, definitive, quantifiable worth to someone's labor.

I guess you never ran a payroll or a cost center.
 
I guess you never ran a payroll or a cost center.

Surplus value of labor is the reason you hire a person in the first place. Your boss makes money off the work you do.
 
Surplus value of labor is the reason you hire a person in the first place. Your boss makes money off the work you do.

That's the case with every employee but it has nothing to do with what you pay an employee.
 
That's the case with every employee but it has nothing to do with what you pay an employee.

Precisely. And that's why the wage you pay that person is not the only conceivable amount you can pay them.

Every business is a team effort. A large group of people perform various tasks that result in income for the company. It's a group value of labor. And there's no law of physics or economics that says the CEO has to take home a million and the cash register guy can't even feed himself.

How much of that value is actually paid to the worker, and how much is taken by the company? Why do people seem to think there's only one possible distribution?
 
state workers lost their collective bargaining rights in 2005 by executive fiat in; teachers in 2012.

Again, if you can demonstrate this, I would like to see it. But I think you are attempting to apply individual state decisions to the entire demographic.

they're teaching your ****ing kids. they deserve to not be treated like dog ****.

Agreed. Which is part of why I have consistently argued that we need to increase their pay. However, they don't teach my kids (currently, at least). We don't think much of our current school system, which is why we home school. It's worth noting that teachers are also disproportionately more likely to send their kids to private school, indicating that perhaps we are not alone in our assessment.

raise the ****ing price of goods a little. i'm not arguing for a fifty thousand dollar a year base pay at ****ing walmart, i'm arguing for better control over schedules and more access to promotion.

The vast majority of Wal Mart's managers are former associates. They already promote from within.

for myself, i'd ask for a little better job security

There is almost no such thing, outside of union and tenure, and even then, not as much as people think. Your "Job Security" is your ability to provide value-added, your skill set.

in my industry, everything is fixed duration and independent contract work now. that ****ing sucks. you can't get yourself established in a particular place, and they fire you on the end date even if you do a good job. it sucks, man. it really sucks.

I've worked contracts as well - I can get that. You really have two jobs - this job, and keeping an eye out for the next job. In my industry, contract pay got cut sharply (~25-40% ish, depending on who you were and where you are), which is part of why I left that position for my current one. The old company offered to hire me on as a full time worker in a higher billet instead, but this job was better for some home-life considerations. But I've done the move-every-few-years thing as well, you can't buy a house, it's a pain.

However, anger at your situation is misplaced when directed against those who manage to offer employment to our least skilled workforce. When you say "increase the cost of hiring our low-skill low-experience citizens" what you are in effect saying is "reduce demand for hiring our low-skill low-experience citizens". You're (probably) not going to fix the problems of your industry by kicking poor people out of jobs.

you can't get yourself established in a particular place, and they fire you on the end date even if you do a good job. it sucks, man. it really sucks. i'm likely to lose this job in July. it's only because i kick ass at what i do that i got a year extension.

Bro I am sorry to hear that. At least you know so you can plan. What industry do you work, if you don't mind me asking?

I've already commented extensively on why i think the education paywall is really bad for the country. refer to earlier posts.

Utilizing government funding for education has created an education bubble associated with massive debt, underutilized resources, and wasted income opportunities. "This is a problem" =/= "therefore government should run it".

yeah, but a lot of people do get treated that way, and it's going to keep getting worse.

Well, employees will be compensated according to their relative value added. That's why guys like Sessions are right to point out that the biggest losers of the Presidents' Immigration plan is low-income legal American citizens, who now have to compete for jobs with a higher supply of labor, driving down the price they can charge. When labor is relatively scarce, income is higher because you are in greater relative demand - Wal Mart associates in South Dakota, I understand, are making around $17 an hour right now - because labor there is scarcer.



If you hate the contracting world, and are good at what you do, what is your plan to translate that into a permanent position?
 
More ignorant thinking. The barnacles have to work harder because they have no protections from management thuggery.

:yawn: Again, this is belied by the real world examples of it working in practice.

Union members work at a "reasonable pace" and don't have to worry about management thuggery.

:lol:





You're not going to get me all riled up at the notion that those who take home more money have to work harder in order to get it. Gosh Darn? :) But it is entertaining how you don't see the contradiction in complaining in one breath that non-union employees are "barnacles" and in the next that they are more productive, instead of working at a "reasonable" pace :lol:
 
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Why dont you just get a job that pays twice what you currently earn?

Because I'm 70 years old. Employers don't hire people my age. If I were job hunting I'd be far better off as a Walmart employee.
 
Again, if you can demonstrate this, I would like to see it. But I think you are attempting to apply individual state decisions to the entire demographic.

State unions say they have little left to lose - Post-Tribune


Agreed. Which is part of why I have consistently argued that we need to increase their pay. However, they don't teach my kids (currently, at least). We don't think much of our current school system, which is why we home school. It's worth noting that teachers are also disproportionately more likely to send their kids to private school, indicating that perhaps we are not alone in our assessment.

my teacher parents didn't.

The vast majority of Wal Mart's managers are former associates. They already promote from within.

judging by how many of their workers are on public assistance, there's room to improve.

There is almost no such thing, outside of union and tenure, and even then, not as much as people think. Your "Job Security" is your ability to provide value-added, your skill set.

i've found this to be horse****. i was promoted up until my end date at my last job. looking back on it now, i was probably fired because my supervisor pissed off the business unit, and i was her help in the lab. had i been in a union, that never would have happened.

I've worked contracts as well - I can get that. You really have two jobs - this job, and keeping an eye out for the next job. In my industry, contract pay got cut sharply (~25-40% ish, depending on who you were and where you are), which is part of why I left that position for my current one. The old company offered to hire me on as a full time worker in a higher billet instead, but this job was better for some home-life considerations. But I've done the move-every-few-years thing as well, you can't buy a house, it's a pain.

However, anger at your situation is misplaced when directed against those who manage to offer employment to our least skilled workforce. When you say "increase the cost of hiring our low-skill low-experience citizens" what you are in effect saying is "reduce demand for hiring our low-skill low-experience citizens". You're (probably) not going to fix the problems of your industry by kicking poor people out of jobs.

i'm for guaranteeing education and job training for them, as i've already said.

Bro I am sorry to hear that. At least you know so you can plan. What industry do you work, if you don't mind me asking?

i'm in biochem / molecular / microbiological research. you'd think that would insulate me from some of this ****.

Utilizing government funding for education has created an education bubble associated with massive debt, underutilized resources, and wasted income opportunities. "This is a problem" =/= "therefore government should run it".

i consider it an investment in our national intellectual resources. measures can be taken to control cost. for example, the educational / training guarantee could apply to public universities. this problem is fixable.

Well, employees will be compensated according to their relative value added. That's why guys like Sessions are right to point out that the biggest losers of the Presidents' Immigration plan is low-income legal American citizens, who now have to compete for jobs with a higher supply of labor, driving down the price they can charge. When labor is relatively scarce, income is higher because you are in greater relative demand - Wal Mart associates in South Dakota, I understand, are making around $17 an hour right now - because labor there is scarcer.

as i said, i think this is an oversimplification. if you have no representation, your job is subject to the petty whim of every asshole above you. i'm only employed right now because my boss moved mountains to keep me on after the sequester ruined his chances of getting continued funding. he is an exceptional person, and so is our director.

If you hate the contracting world, and are good at what you do, what is your plan to translate that into a permanent position?

i'm probably going to have to move. really don't want to, but it is what it is, and my life is good even though i'm not sure what is going to happen at work.
 
:yawn: Again, this is belied by the real world examples of it working in practice.



:lol:





You're not going to get me all riled up at the notion that those who take home more money have to work harder in order to get it. Gosh Darn? :) But it is entertaining how you don't see the contradiction in complaining in one breath that non-union employees are "barnacles" and in the next that they are more productive, instead of working at a "reasonable" pace :lol:


Show me your real world examples.


And, what's to get riled up? You don't know what you're talking about.
 
cpwill said:
I think you are attempting to apply individual state decisions to the entire demographic.
State unions say they have little left to lose - Post-Tribune

So.... yes. Specifically, Indiana.

my teacher parents didn't.

:shrug: ?

judging by how many of their workers are on public assistance, there's room to improve.

....You want Wal-Mart to make up Managerial positions for no reason?

If Wal-Mart's workers are on public assistance that's a good thing. That means that Wal Mart is managing to offer the people on public assistance a way to build the necessary skills and work experience to get off public assistance.

i've found this to be horse****. i was promoted up until my end date at my last job. looking back on it now, i was probably fired because my supervisor pissed off the business unit, and i was her help in the lab. had i been in a union, that never would have happened.

:lol: yeah. because politics never happens with unions.

No - you would have been fired because you are too young. Or (ironically) because you work too well at your job (what did JoG call it? A "reasonable" level of work?).

Take, for example, my very oldest friend in the world (literally since we were about 6 months old). Middle School male teacher working in a disadvantaged section of town - but did some out of the box work and got his kids reading on purpose, got them interested in what they were reading. He's excited, the kids are excited, finally school is a positive in their lives, they're working with the library to develop and expand a program - it's a Lifetime Movie waiting to get shot. Then, the school decides it needs to trim some. Because my friend is performing way above average with disadvantaged kids, he's good, right? Wrong. Unions don't give a rats' ass about the quality of your individual work unless you are creating standards that might require efforts for other to maintain - absent that, what unions care about is seniority. So my friend is given the boot, and the lady in the class next door who gives the kids a worksheet to ignore every day before sitting at her desk and reading magazines stays on - after all, she's been there longer. So my friend goes to make a fuss (the Principal was black, she'd been upset that a black teacher at another school had been denied tenure merely for engaging in criminal activity and claimed it was racism, all the teachers she fired were white, it was fairly suspicious) when lady-next-door-with-the-magazines pulls him aside and explains that as the union rep if he makes a stink she will have him blackballed. Because that's how unions benefit the workers.

So my buddy makes a bit of a fuss with the principal but foregoes legal action, figuring he'd rather have a job than a settlement. Except apparently this lady still put out something, because everywhere he goes, they are thrilled to see him, and throw him on the top of their substitute-teacher list.... but no permanent positions.

"Hey, is there a chance I could demonstrate that I'm good with the kids and turn this into a full time position?"
"Sorry, no, that's not really possible right now."
"Oh, but I see that you are currently actually advertising for a full time teacher in my specialty - what about that?"
[...strained smiles...] "....um.... no, sorry, sorry, we just really can't do that right now..."​

After years of trying to tie together patch-time pieces and getting repeatedly turned down across multiple cities, counties, etc., he finally got it. No one is willing to risk it. He's trying to start over now as a cop. :-/


Being in a union that dominates an industry doesn't mean that you won't get fired for BS reasons. It just means that when you do you are ****ed because there is only one entity allowed to sell your kind of labor, and you're on its **** list. :( Monopolies are bad, even when we are part of them.
 
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Helix said:
i'm for guaranteeing education and job training for them, as i've already said.

Having the government provide this is guaranteed to create massive misalignment of skill sets, and will be bad for both the field and the students.

i'm in biochem / molecular / microbiological research. you'd think that would insulate me from some of this ****.

Hah - that makes sense. "Helix". You'd think, yeah. There are (famously) a bunch of STEM jobs left unfilled. Hat's off to you, though, I don't want your job or the necessary academic inputs. Nice, soft, humanities for me, thanks :).

i consider it an investment in our national intellectual resources. measures can be taken to control cost. for example, the educational / training guarantee could apply to public universities. this problem is fixable.

When you artificially reduce cost, you explode demand. What are you going to do once you start offering free college education at public universities and so everyone except for the few dedicated Ivy League types decide they want to go, and not just for four years, but for a Masters in Feminist Basketweaving as well? How is it an investment in our national intellectual resources to steer them away from productivity and into ennui?

as i said, i think this is an oversimplification. if you have no representation, your job is subject to the petty whim of every asshole above you.

:lol: yeah, but the a-hole above him is going to fire him if he loses all of his quality workers, and his section suffers for it.

Bosses are just people, man. If all bosses are assholes, that means that all workers are assholes, and deserve just as much whatever happens to them. :)

Sad to say, actually, most employees are not that great. There is a reason that 20% of the people in most organizations do 80% of the work.

i'm only employed right now because my boss moved mountains to keep me on after the sequester ruined his chances of getting continued funding. he is an exceptional person, and so is our director.

I've had good bosses (and atrocious ones) as well. The good ones typically have sections that perform amazingly well, because people want to succeed for them. Then they tend to get promoted, and promulgate (hopefully) that culture across a wider bandwidth. The crappy bosses? Not so much. Competition punishes bad employers far better, with more consistency, and with more accuracy, than any corporatist/government construct.

...but you do realize that, had you been a member of a union, your boss wouldn't have been able to do that, right? He'd have been constrained by union rules, and they would have directed him to retain based on seniority rather than quality of work.

I'm probably going to have to move. really don't want to, but it is what it is, and my life is good even though i'm not sure what is going to happen at work.

Sorry to hear that - my switch involved a move as well, and I'll probably have to again in 2-3 years. As you say, it is what it is. Trying to find the stay-here-and-raise-kids position.
 
So.... yes. Specifically, Indiana.



:shrug: ?



....You want Wal-Mart to make up Managerial positions for no reason?

If Wal-Mart's workers are on public assistance that's a good thing. That means that Wal Mart is managing to offer the people on public assistance a way to build the necessary skills and work experience to get off public assistance.



:lol: yeah. because politics never happens with unions.

No - you would have been fired because you are too young. Or (ionically) because you work too well at your job (what did JoG call it? A "reasonable" level of work?).

Take, for example, my very oldest friend in the world (literally since we were about 6 months old). Middle School male teacher working in a disadvantaged section of town - but did some out of the box work and got his kids reading on purpose, got them interested in what they were reading. He's excited, the kids are excited, finally school is a positive in their lives, they're working with the library to develop and expand a program - it's a Lifetime Movie waiting to get shot. Then, the school decides it needs to trim some. Because my friend is performing way above average with disadvantaged kids, he's good, right? Wrong. Unions don't give a rats' ass about the quality of your individual work unless you are creating standards that might require efforts for other to maintain - absent that, what unions care about is seniority. So my friend is given the boot, and the lady in the class next door who gives the kids a worksheet to ignore every day before sitting at her desk and reading magazines stays on - after all, she's been there longer. So my friend goes to make a fuss (the Principal was black, she'd been upset that a black teacher at another school had been denied tenure merely for engaging in criminal activity and claimed it was racism, all the teachers she fired were white, it was fairly suspicious) when lady-next-door-with-the-magazines pulls him aside and explains that as the union rep if he makes a stink she will have him blackballed. Because that's how unions benefit the workers.

So my buddy makes a bit of a fuss with the principal but foregoes legal action, figuring he'd rather have a job than a settlement. Except apparently this lady still put out something, because everywhere he goes, they are thrilled to see him, and throw him on the top of their substitute-teacher list.... but no permanent positions. "Hey, is there a chance I could demonstrate that I'm good with the kids and turn this into a full time position?" "Sorry, no, that's not really possible right now." "Oh, but I see that you are currently actually advertising for a full time teacher in my specialty - what about that?" [...strained smiles...] "....um.... no, sorry, sorry, we just really can't do that right now..."

After years of trying to tie together patch-time pieces and getting repeatedly turned down across multiple cities, counties, etc., he finally got it. No one is willing to risk it. He's trying to start over now as a cop. :-/

yes, i want the nation's largest private employer to not rely on public assistance to supplement so many workers' incomes. and i want to educate and train those workers so that we don't have to support them for the rest of their lives.
 
Having the government provide this is guaranteed to create massive misalignment of skill sets, and will be bad for both the field and the students.

i don't agree that an educated population can be anything but something good for the country.

Hah - that makes sense. "Helix". You'd think, yeah. There are (famously) a bunch of STEM jobs left unfilled. Hat's off to you, though, I don't want your job or the necessary academic inputs. Nice, soft, humanities for me, thanks :).

i enjoy humanities more, as well.

When you artificially reduce cost, you explode demand. What are you going to do once you start offering free college education at public universities and so everyone except for the few dedicated Ivy League types decide they want to go, and not just for four years, but for a Masters in Feminist Basketweaving as well? How is it an investment in our national intellectual resources to steer them away from productivity and into ennui?

any education is better than a lack of education. my opinion is that it's still worth the investment if the student completes the program. however, if you want to set a compromise point at ensuring that the publicly funded education results in a career, i would at least consider it.

:lol: yeah, but the a-hole above him is going to fire him if he loses all of his quality workers, and his section suffers for it.

Bosses are just people, man. If all bosses are assholes, that means that all workers are assholes, and deserve just as much whatever happens to them. :)

all people are people, and have choices to make.

Sad to say, actually, most employees are not that great. There is a reason that 20% of the people in most organizations do 80% of the work.

I've had good bosses (and atrocious ones) as well. The good ones typically have sections that perform amazingly well, because people want to succeed for them. Then they tend to get promoted, and promulgate (hopefully) that culture across a wider bandwidth. The crappy bosses? Not so much. Competition punishes bad employers far better, with more consistency, and with more accuracy, than any corporatist/government construct.

...but you do realize that, had you been a member of a union, your boss wouldn't have been able to do that, right? He'd have been constrained by union rules, and they would have directed him to retain based on seniority rather than quality of work.

had i been a member of a union, the verbal promises made to me at the corporate gig might have actually been kept.

Sorry to hear that - my switch involved a move as well, and I'll probably have to again in 2-3 years. As you say, it is what it is. Trying to find the stay-here-and-raise-kids position.

yep. pretty much the same thing here, although maybe i'm trying to keep too tight of a grip on it. i just don't want to move very much, and i'm burned out on commuting. oh well, first world problems. i like my life.
 
yes, i want the nation's largest private employer to not rely on public assistance to supplement so many workers' incomes.

Ah. Well then be at ease :). Wal Mart does not rely on public assistance to supplement any of its workers incomes. If (for example) the EITC or Medicaid were to disappear tomorrow, there is precisely zero forcing functions that would then require Wal-Mart to increase its wages to make up for the loss in annual take-home for its' employees.

and i want to educate and train those workers so that we don't have to support them for the rest of their lives.

Me too. And for most of them the best way to educate and train them is by them having a job. That's how you build the work experience and skill sets to survive if you're not going to be a higher-function knowledge worker like you or me. Taking someone working as a night-stocker at Wal-Mart and sending them to a four year college that they fail to get a degree at before they go back to being a night-stocker at Wal-Mart doesn't increase their earning power, it decreases their annual earnings by taking them out of the labor force for four years.

Think I'm exaggerating? Of this years freshman class less than fourty percent will be have degrees four years from now, it takes most of them six years, at a loss of about $70,000 a year once you add in lost income.

141201-college1-graphic.JPG


Those who do manage to graduate, after those losses, more than half will end up in jobs that don't require college degrees.

I don't agree that an educated population can be anything but something good for the country.

Sure. If you simply don't count the cost lots of things aren't anything but good for the country. If we were to hire a personal physical trainer and accountant for every individual citizen without counting the expense or the losses, that wouldn't be anything but good for the country either. But there is such a thing as ROI and Diminishing Returns.

i enjoy humanities more, as well.

Humanities Does It With People :mrgreen:

any education is better than a lack of education.

Is spending $80,000 on a degree that you will never utilize, but does cost you four years of career advancement and work experience better? I'd say not so much. I have one friend who got his doctorate in history only to end up working as a pipe restorer - he did the math later and realized he'd be in a better financial position if he'd just gone to jail for 6 years, instead.

my opinion is that it's still worth the investment if the student completes the program. however, if you want to set a compromise point at ensuring that the publicly funded education results in a career, i would at least consider it.

Except that there is no way to predict that. Half the jobs are going away and getting replaced with something else in the next couple of decades. We want a job market that adapts and changes and grows like personal computing, not one that adapts and changes and grows like US Federal Bureaucracy.

all people are people, and have choices to make.

:shrug: true enough.

had i been a member of a union, the verbal promises made to me at the corporate gig might have actually been kept.

On the contrary - had you been a member of a union the promises made to you would have been even less meaningless because the people making them would have had less power to see them enforced.

yep. pretty much the same thing here, although maybe i'm trying to keep too tight of a grip on it. i just don't want to move very much, and i'm burned out on commuting. oh well, first world problems. i like my life.

Yeah I was spending two hours a day in the car in my old job. But people in my industry often spend 3-6, so.....
 
Walmart's healthcare plan covers over a million people at about 75% the cost of comparable healthcare plans for its employees though the cost advantage may erode some with the influx of new members.
 
Ah. Well then be at ease :). Wal Mart does not rely on public assistance to supplement any of its workers incomes. If (for example) the EITC or Medicaid were to disappear tomorrow, there is precisely zero forcing functions that would then require Wal-Mart to increase its wages to make up for the loss in annual take-home for its' employees.

i have reached my limit with refusal to take reality into account today.

Me too. And for most of them the best way to educate and train them is by them having a job. That's how you build the work experience and skill sets to survive if you're not going to be a higher-function knowledge worker like you or me. Taking someone working as a night-stocker at Wal-Mart and sending them to a four year college that they fail to get a degree at before they go back to being a night-stocker at Wal-Mart doesn't increase their earning power, it decreases their annual earnings by taking them out of the labor force for four years.

i'm done with this thread. the divide is just too wide to bridge. no hope of consensus. happy holidays.
 
i have reached my limit with refusal to take reality into account today.

I think you have reached your limit with cognitive dissonance, which is not the same thing. But if you (or anyone else who makes this argument) has ever shown how Wal Mart actually depends on social programs to help it pay minimum wage, I've never seen it.

i'm done with this thread. the divide is just too wide to bridge.

Not everyone can be or should be a STEM worker, Helix. We need auto mechanics and plumbers as well.

happy holidays.

Peace to you and yours :)
 
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I think you have reached your limit with cognitive dissonance, which is not the same thing. But if you (or anyone else who makes this argument) has ever shown how Wal Mart actually depends on social programs to help it pay minimum wage, I've never seen it.



Not everyone can be or should be a STEM worker, Helix. We need auto mechanics and plumbers as well.



Peace to you and yours :)

i never argued that it relied on public assistance to pay minimum ****ing wage.
 
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:roll::doh

Walmart should close those stores and leave town...

As an employer I retain the authority to dictate employee attire during work periods.

It's interesting that you used the word dictate, tater Thom.
 
It's interesting that you used the word dictate, tater Thom.

In order to assure proper business operation that is the job of management. There are no committees for discussion. If management does not perform at any level it's gone. Note though, that as far a employees are concerned management must be benevolent; and most good management finds that balance.

Good day to ya'
Thom Paine
 
:yawn

I can do it to:

Unions are nothing but parasites, sucking the lifeblood from the unwilling backs of the worker, taking dues to support high leadership wages and political activity rather than actually work in the interests of their membership.

:roll:

Unions are better under RTW conditions because they have to perform. That's why they are so pervasive (for example) in Germany, which has a national RTW law, and also widespread unionization.

it seems you do not have the same union animus towards the unionized employees of germany
why is that?
 
it seems you do not have the same union animus towards the unionized employees of germany
why is that?

I do not have an animus against American workers. I have an animus against a system which 1) forces unions on individuals and 2) gives unions little incentive to work for their interests. In Germany, unions have to produce direct benefit to the workers, because workers have the right not to be a member if they do not perceive that the juice is worth the squeeze. That is not an option for too many American workers. If we had a national RTW set up, as Germany does, then I suspect we would have better unions as well.
 
I do not have an animus against American workers. I have an animus against a system which 1) forces unions on individuals and 2) gives unions little incentive to work for their interests. In Germany, unions have to produce direct benefit to the workers, because workers have the right not to be a member if they do not perceive that the juice is worth the squeeze. That is not an option for too many American workers. If we had a national RTW set up, as Germany does, then I suspect we would have better unions as well.
i believe you give right to work status too much credit
it would seem that the right to work states are those having the least union participation
and certainly when looking at germany's strong economy and strong unionization, unionization appears to be a positive aspect of that prosperity. something that is obviously diminished by right to work status
 
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