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Thread: Walmart Threatened Workers For Trying To Organize, Judge Rules

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    Re: Walmart Threatened Workers For Trying To Organize, Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    I think you are attempting to apply individual state decisions to the entire demographic.
    State unions say they have little left to lose - Post-Tribune
    So.... yes. Specifically, Indiana.

    my teacher parents didn't.
    ?

    judging by how many of their workers are on public assistance, there's room to improve.
    ....You want Wal-Mart to make up Managerial positions for no reason?

    If Wal-Mart's workers are on public assistance that's a good thing. That means that Wal Mart is managing to offer the people on public assistance a way to build the necessary skills and work experience to get off public assistance.

    i've found this to be horse****. i was promoted up until my end date at my last job. looking back on it now, i was probably fired because my supervisor pissed off the business unit, and i was her help in the lab. had i been in a union, that never would have happened.
    yeah. because politics never happens with unions.

    No - you would have been fired because you are too young. Or (ironically) because you work too well at your job (what did JoG call it? A "reasonable" level of work?).

    Take, for example, my very oldest friend in the world (literally since we were about 6 months old). Middle School male teacher working in a disadvantaged section of town - but did some out of the box work and got his kids reading on purpose, got them interested in what they were reading. He's excited, the kids are excited, finally school is a positive in their lives, they're working with the library to develop and expand a program - it's a Lifetime Movie waiting to get shot. Then, the school decides it needs to trim some. Because my friend is performing way above average with disadvantaged kids, he's good, right? Wrong. Unions don't give a rats' ass about the quality of your individual work unless you are creating standards that might require efforts for other to maintain - absent that, what unions care about is seniority. So my friend is given the boot, and the lady in the class next door who gives the kids a worksheet to ignore every day before sitting at her desk and reading magazines stays on - after all, she's been there longer. So my friend goes to make a fuss (the Principal was black, she'd been upset that a black teacher at another school had been denied tenure merely for engaging in criminal activity and claimed it was racism, all the teachers she fired were white, it was fairly suspicious) when lady-next-door-with-the-magazines pulls him aside and explains that as the union rep if he makes a stink she will have him blackballed. Because that's how unions benefit the workers.

    So my buddy makes a bit of a fuss with the principal but foregoes legal action, figuring he'd rather have a job than a settlement. Except apparently this lady still put out something, because everywhere he goes, they are thrilled to see him, and throw him on the top of their substitute-teacher list.... but no permanent positions.

    "Hey, is there a chance I could demonstrate that I'm good with the kids and turn this into a full time position?"
    "Sorry, no, that's not really possible right now."
    "Oh, but I see that you are currently actually advertising for a full time teacher in my specialty - what about that?"
    [...strained smiles...] "....um.... no, sorry, sorry, we just really can't do that right now..."

    After years of trying to tie together patch-time pieces and getting repeatedly turned down across multiple cities, counties, etc., he finally got it. No one is willing to risk it. He's trying to start over now as a cop. :-/


    Being in a union that dominates an industry doesn't mean that you won't get fired for BS reasons. It just means that when you do you are ****ed because there is only one entity allowed to sell your kind of labor, and you're on its **** list. Monopolies are bad, even when we are part of them.
    Last edited by cpwill; 12-16-14 at 10:22 PM.

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    Re: Walmart Threatened Workers For Trying To Organize, Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix
    i'm for guaranteeing education and job training for them, as i've already said.
    Having the government provide this is guaranteed to create massive misalignment of skill sets, and will be bad for both the field and the students.

    i'm in biochem / molecular / microbiological research. you'd think that would insulate me from some of this ****.
    Hah - that makes sense. "Helix". You'd think, yeah. There are (famously) a bunch of STEM jobs left unfilled. Hat's off to you, though, I don't want your job or the necessary academic inputs. Nice, soft, humanities for me, thanks .

    i consider it an investment in our national intellectual resources. measures can be taken to control cost. for example, the educational / training guarantee could apply to public universities. this problem is fixable.
    When you artificially reduce cost, you explode demand. What are you going to do once you start offering free college education at public universities and so everyone except for the few dedicated Ivy League types decide they want to go, and not just for four years, but for a Masters in Feminist Basketweaving as well? How is it an investment in our national intellectual resources to steer them away from productivity and into ennui?

    as i said, i think this is an oversimplification. if you have no representation, your job is subject to the petty whim of every asshole above you.
    yeah, but the a-hole above him is going to fire him if he loses all of his quality workers, and his section suffers for it.

    Bosses are just people, man. If all bosses are assholes, that means that all workers are assholes, and deserve just as much whatever happens to them.

    Sad to say, actually, most employees are not that great. There is a reason that 20% of the people in most organizations do 80% of the work.

    i'm only employed right now because my boss moved mountains to keep me on after the sequester ruined his chances of getting continued funding. he is an exceptional person, and so is our director.
    I've had good bosses (and atrocious ones) as well. The good ones typically have sections that perform amazingly well, because people want to succeed for them. Then they tend to get promoted, and promulgate (hopefully) that culture across a wider bandwidth. The crappy bosses? Not so much. Competition punishes bad employers far better, with more consistency, and with more accuracy, than any corporatist/government construct.

    ...but you do realize that, had you been a member of a union, your boss wouldn't have been able to do that, right? He'd have been constrained by union rules, and they would have directed him to retain based on seniority rather than quality of work.

    I'm probably going to have to move. really don't want to, but it is what it is, and my life is good even though i'm not sure what is going to happen at work.
    Sorry to hear that - my switch involved a move as well, and I'll probably have to again in 2-3 years. As you say, it is what it is. Trying to find the stay-here-and-raise-kids position.

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    Re: Walmart Threatened Workers For Trying To Organize, Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    So.... yes. Specifically, Indiana.



    ?



    ....You want Wal-Mart to make up Managerial positions for no reason?

    If Wal-Mart's workers are on public assistance that's a good thing. That means that Wal Mart is managing to offer the people on public assistance a way to build the necessary skills and work experience to get off public assistance.



    yeah. because politics never happens with unions.

    No - you would have been fired because you are too young. Or (ionically) because you work too well at your job (what did JoG call it? A "reasonable" level of work?).

    Take, for example, my very oldest friend in the world (literally since we were about 6 months old). Middle School male teacher working in a disadvantaged section of town - but did some out of the box work and got his kids reading on purpose, got them interested in what they were reading. He's excited, the kids are excited, finally school is a positive in their lives, they're working with the library to develop and expand a program - it's a Lifetime Movie waiting to get shot. Then, the school decides it needs to trim some. Because my friend is performing way above average with disadvantaged kids, he's good, right? Wrong. Unions don't give a rats' ass about the quality of your individual work unless you are creating standards that might require efforts for other to maintain - absent that, what unions care about is seniority. So my friend is given the boot, and the lady in the class next door who gives the kids a worksheet to ignore every day before sitting at her desk and reading magazines stays on - after all, she's been there longer. So my friend goes to make a fuss (the Principal was black, she'd been upset that a black teacher at another school had been denied tenure merely for engaging in criminal activity and claimed it was racism, all the teachers she fired were white, it was fairly suspicious) when lady-next-door-with-the-magazines pulls him aside and explains that as the union rep if he makes a stink she will have him blackballed. Because that's how unions benefit the workers.

    So my buddy makes a bit of a fuss with the principal but foregoes legal action, figuring he'd rather have a job than a settlement. Except apparently this lady still put out something, because everywhere he goes, they are thrilled to see him, and throw him on the top of their substitute-teacher list.... but no permanent positions. "Hey, is there a chance I could demonstrate that I'm good with the kids and turn this into a full time position?" "Sorry, no, that's not really possible right now." "Oh, but I see that you are currently actually advertising for a full time teacher in my specialty - what about that?" [...strained smiles...] "....um.... no, sorry, sorry, we just really can't do that right now..."

    After years of trying to tie together patch-time pieces and getting repeatedly turned down across multiple cities, counties, etc., he finally got it. No one is willing to risk it. He's trying to start over now as a cop. :-/
    yes, i want the nation's largest private employer to not rely on public assistance to supplement so many workers' incomes. and i want to educate and train those workers so that we don't have to support them for the rest of their lives.

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    Re: Walmart Threatened Workers For Trying To Organize, Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Having the government provide this is guaranteed to create massive misalignment of skill sets, and will be bad for both the field and the students.
    i don't agree that an educated population can be anything but something good for the country.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Hah - that makes sense. "Helix". You'd think, yeah. There are (famously) a bunch of STEM jobs left unfilled. Hat's off to you, though, I don't want your job or the necessary academic inputs. Nice, soft, humanities for me, thanks .
    i enjoy humanities more, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    When you artificially reduce cost, you explode demand. What are you going to do once you start offering free college education at public universities and so everyone except for the few dedicated Ivy League types decide they want to go, and not just for four years, but for a Masters in Feminist Basketweaving as well? How is it an investment in our national intellectual resources to steer them away from productivity and into ennui?
    any education is better than a lack of education. my opinion is that it's still worth the investment if the student completes the program. however, if you want to set a compromise point at ensuring that the publicly funded education results in a career, i would at least consider it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    yeah, but the a-hole above him is going to fire him if he loses all of his quality workers, and his section suffers for it.

    Bosses are just people, man. If all bosses are assholes, that means that all workers are assholes, and deserve just as much whatever happens to them.
    all people are people, and have choices to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Sad to say, actually, most employees are not that great. There is a reason that 20% of the people in most organizations do 80% of the work.

    I've had good bosses (and atrocious ones) as well. The good ones typically have sections that perform amazingly well, because people want to succeed for them. Then they tend to get promoted, and promulgate (hopefully) that culture across a wider bandwidth. The crappy bosses? Not so much. Competition punishes bad employers far better, with more consistency, and with more accuracy, than any corporatist/government construct.

    ...but you do realize that, had you been a member of a union, your boss wouldn't have been able to do that, right? He'd have been constrained by union rules, and they would have directed him to retain based on seniority rather than quality of work.
    had i been a member of a union, the verbal promises made to me at the corporate gig might have actually been kept.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Sorry to hear that - my switch involved a move as well, and I'll probably have to again in 2-3 years. As you say, it is what it is. Trying to find the stay-here-and-raise-kids position.
    yep. pretty much the same thing here, although maybe i'm trying to keep too tight of a grip on it. i just don't want to move very much, and i'm burned out on commuting. oh well, first world problems. i like my life.

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    Re: Walmart Threatened Workers For Trying To Organize, Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    yes, i want the nation's largest private employer to not rely on public assistance to supplement so many workers' incomes.
    Ah. Well then be at ease . Wal Mart does not rely on public assistance to supplement any of its workers incomes. If (for example) the EITC or Medicaid were to disappear tomorrow, there is precisely zero forcing functions that would then require Wal-Mart to increase its wages to make up for the loss in annual take-home for its' employees.

    and i want to educate and train those workers so that we don't have to support them for the rest of their lives.
    Me too. And for most of them the best way to educate and train them is by them having a job. That's how you build the work experience and skill sets to survive if you're not going to be a higher-function knowledge worker like you or me. Taking someone working as a night-stocker at Wal-Mart and sending them to a four year college that they fail to get a degree at before they go back to being a night-stocker at Wal-Mart doesn't increase their earning power, it decreases their annual earnings by taking them out of the labor force for four years.

    Think I'm exaggerating? Of this years freshman class less than fourty percent will be have degrees four years from now, it takes most of them six years, at a loss of about $70,000 a year once you add in lost income.



    Those who do manage to graduate, after those losses, more than half will end up in jobs that don't require college degrees.

    I don't agree that an educated population can be anything but something good for the country.
    Sure. If you simply don't count the cost lots of things aren't anything but good for the country. If we were to hire a personal physical trainer and accountant for every individual citizen without counting the expense or the losses, that wouldn't be anything but good for the country either. But there is such a thing as ROI and Diminishing Returns.

    i enjoy humanities more, as well.
    Humanities Does It With People

    any education is better than a lack of education.
    Is spending $80,000 on a degree that you will never utilize, but does cost you four years of career advancement and work experience better? I'd say not so much. I have one friend who got his doctorate in history only to end up working as a pipe restorer - he did the math later and realized he'd be in a better financial position if he'd just gone to jail for 6 years, instead.

    my opinion is that it's still worth the investment if the student completes the program. however, if you want to set a compromise point at ensuring that the publicly funded education results in a career, i would at least consider it.
    Except that there is no way to predict that. Half the jobs are going away and getting replaced with something else in the next couple of decades. We want a job market that adapts and changes and grows like personal computing, not one that adapts and changes and grows like US Federal Bureaucracy.

    all people are people, and have choices to make.
    true enough.

    had i been a member of a union, the verbal promises made to me at the corporate gig might have actually been kept.
    On the contrary - had you been a member of a union the promises made to you would have been even less meaningless because the people making them would have had less power to see them enforced.

    yep. pretty much the same thing here, although maybe i'm trying to keep too tight of a grip on it. i just don't want to move very much, and i'm burned out on commuting. oh well, first world problems. i like my life.
    Yeah I was spending two hours a day in the car in my old job. But people in my industry often spend 3-6, so.....

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    Re: Walmart Threatened Workers For Trying To Organize, Judge Rules

    Walmart's healthcare plan covers over a million people at about 75% the cost of comparable healthcare plans for its employees though the cost advantage may erode some with the influx of new members.

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    Re: Walmart Threatened Workers For Trying To Organize, Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Ah. Well then be at ease . Wal Mart does not rely on public assistance to supplement any of its workers incomes. If (for example) the EITC or Medicaid were to disappear tomorrow, there is precisely zero forcing functions that would then require Wal-Mart to increase its wages to make up for the loss in annual take-home for its' employees.
    i have reached my limit with refusal to take reality into account today.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Me too. And for most of them the best way to educate and train them is by them having a job. That's how you build the work experience and skill sets to survive if you're not going to be a higher-function knowledge worker like you or me. Taking someone working as a night-stocker at Wal-Mart and sending them to a four year college that they fail to get a degree at before they go back to being a night-stocker at Wal-Mart doesn't increase their earning power, it decreases their annual earnings by taking them out of the labor force for four years.
    i'm done with this thread. the divide is just too wide to bridge. no hope of consensus. happy holidays.

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    Re: Walmart Threatened Workers For Trying To Organize, Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    i have reached my limit with refusal to take reality into account today.
    I think you have reached your limit with cognitive dissonance, which is not the same thing. But if you (or anyone else who makes this argument) has ever shown how Wal Mart actually depends on social programs to help it pay minimum wage, I've never seen it.

    i'm done with this thread. the divide is just too wide to bridge.
    Not everyone can be or should be a STEM worker, Helix. We need auto mechanics and plumbers as well.

    happy holidays.
    Peace to you and yours
    Last edited by cpwill; 12-17-14 at 08:27 AM.

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    Re: Walmart Threatened Workers For Trying To Organize, Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I think you have reached your limit with cognitive dissonance, which is not the same thing. But if you (or anyone else who makes this argument) has ever shown how Wal Mart actually depends on social programs to help it pay minimum wage, I've never seen it.



    Not everyone can be or should be a STEM worker, Helix. We need auto mechanics and plumbers as well.



    Peace to you and yours
    i never argued that it relied on public assistance to pay minimum ****ing wage.
    Last edited by Helix; 12-17-14 at 09:48 AM.

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    Re: Walmart Threatened Workers For Trying To Organize, Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Thom Paine View Post


    Walmart should close those stores and leave town...

    As an employer I retain the authority to dictate employee attire during work periods.
    It's interesting that you used the word dictate, tater Thom.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    The systems that ensure freedom and liberty are breaking down and fundamentalism is growing. Nobody is righteous anymore.


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