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John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

Hard Truth said:
..and the USA managed to survive many wars and conflicts for over 200 years without needing legalized torture.
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But then in those many wars, we never had to deal with fanatical terrorists who crash commercial airlines into skyscrapers and the Pentagon. These bastards do not represent any sovereign nation or fly any nation's flag. They are not covered by the Geneva Conventions. I would be repulsed by any American use of torture in a conventional war between nations. I don't give a @#$% about terrorists. If it will save a few thousand American lives...perhaps prevent another 9/11/01 type terrorist attack, then have at it....whatever it takes to get the info.
 
Perotista said:
Failure could always lead to unthinkable consequences. Back WWII we never gave collateral damage a thought when we fire bombed Dresden and Tokyo. We were at war and we will fighting to win that war. I think if one enters or goes to war, then one needs to use whatever means are available to win it. If you are unwilling to do that, stay home and do not go to war.
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My point about collateral damage and drones is related specifically to the use of drones outside of the battlefield. America is not at war in Yemen, in Pakistan, in Somalia, in Iraq, etc. and yet drones are used in those theaters frequently, often with disastrous results for people who are totally innocent and not enemies of America. I fully support the use of drones in war zones.
 
ObamacareFail said:
But then in those many wars, we never had to deal with fanatical terrorists who crash commercial airlines into skyscrapers and the Pentagon. These bastards do not represent any sovereign nation or fly any nation's flag. They are not covered by the Geneva Conventions. I would be repulsed by any American use of torture in a conventional war between nations. I don't give a @#$% about terrorists. If it will save a few thousand American lives...perhaps prevent another 9/11/01 type terrorist attack, then have at it....whatever it takes to get the info.
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Why would you be repulsed by Americans doing it in a "conventional war"? Wait... what is a conventional war? Because for the most part, we haven't waged "conventional war" since the invention of the gatling gun. There was nothing "conventional" about creating a bomb that could kill 200K people in minutes. There was nothing conventional about Agent Orange. So what defines conventional? Two armies, meeting in a battlefield and duking it out? The world hasn't had that since... what? The 19th century?
 
pbrauer said:
Do you believe George Washington was treasonous when he said:
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The British lost the war and America because the colonials conducted war in a manner unheard of by traditional armies and soldiers. Are you going to hold all to the historical conduct of war?
 
CanadaJohn said:
My point about collateral damage and drones is related specifically to the use of drones outside of the battlefield. America is not at war in Yemen, in Pakistan, in Somalia, in Iraq, etc. and yet drones are used in those theaters frequently, often with disastrous results for people who are totally innocent and not enemies of America. I fully support the use of drones in war zones.
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Terrorists who hide among civilians bring the war with them. The US is at war wherever terrorists hide, and we do not grant them sanctuary anywhere.
 
Middleground said:
Yet the report that came out today states that despite all of the torture committed under the Bush Administration, not one single useful piece of intel was had. Sure a shame after all of that hard work, eh?
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That goes into the classification of liberals in the Senate hoping that if they repeat a lie enough times, it will be perceived as the truth. Leon Panetta who spend time heading the CIA under Obama and was part of the Clinton administration has stated more then once that the lead that the lead that led to finding Osama Bin Laden came from enhanced interrogations.
 
CanadaJohn said:
The British lost the war and America because the colonials conducted war in a manner unheard of by traditional armies and soldiers. Are you going to hold all to the historical conduct of war?
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George Washington said:
“Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.”
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Yeah, ol' Georgie wasn't down for torture either.
 
pbrauer said:
Do you believe George Washington was treasonous when he said:
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As a side question, what does Feinstein giving aid and comfort to our enemies in wartime have to do with establishing policy?

Do you believe Washington's words kept the infantryman from occasionally clubbing a wounded enemy or giving him just one more jab with his bayonet?

Do you believe Washington's policy, in enemy hands would cause them to attack Americans with greater fury?
 
CanadaJohn said:
My point about collateral damage and drones is related specifically to the use of drones outside of the battlefield. America is not at war in Yemen, in Pakistan, in Somalia, in Iraq, etc. and yet drones are used in those theaters frequently, often with disastrous results for people who are totally innocent and not enemies of America. I fully support the use of drones in war zones.
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Drones are a way to make assassination legal. In the old days one would send in a sniper, today we fly drones overhead.
 
Middleground said:
Yet the report that came out today states that despite all of the torture committed under the Bush Administration, not one single useful piece of intel was had. Sure a shame after all of that hard work, eh?
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On that score the report is false. The CIA's public rebuttal deconstructs that falsehood in some detail.
 
Jack Hays said:
Terrorists who hide among civilians bring the war with them. The US is at war wherever terrorists hide, and we do not grant them sanctuary anywhere.
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Good evening 2M - and yet, I'm not aware of any drone attacks on American or Canadian or British soil and several terrorists have been located in these places.

I should qualify my comments, however, to be opposed to the use of drones in countries America is not at war with without the specific consent of that country. I believe Yemen has provided that consent on occasion.
 
Perotista said:
Here is something very interesting CJ:

Americans Have Grown More Supportive Of Torture

Americans Have Grown More Supportive Of Torture | FiveThirtyEight
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Greetings, Pero. :2wave:

The noticeable growing change in sentiment about torture among Americans polled probably directly correlates with the savagery displayed by the terrorists themselves. I would guess that if a poll were taken today, after watching them behead people who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, it would be a large majority of Americans who would agree that torture is not always wrong. Just my opinion...
 
Middleground said:
Well then, I'd say it did the opposite. And you think it unfair that Americans are more hated than ever?
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We are hated so much that we are still the number one destination for immigrants....legal and illegal. Go figure! However personally, I do not lose any sleep at night worrying about whether or not people from other nations like us or not. They either like us or they do not. I am okay either way.
 
ObamacareFail said:
That goes into the classification of liberals in the Senate hoping that if they repeat a lie enough times, it will be perceived as the truth. Leon Panetta who spend time heading the CIA under Obama and was part of the Clinton administration has stated more then once that the lead that the lead that led to finding Osama Bin Laden came from enhanced interrogations.
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That does work. Just saying them one time is sufficient for many who post here.
 
CanadaJohn said:
The British lost the war and America because the colonials conducted war in a manner unheard of by traditional armies and soldiers. Are you going to hold all to the historical conduct of war?
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I believe his stance on torture was exemplary, at the end of WWII the Germans surrendered rather easily because they knew the Americans wouldn't hurt them. That alone saved American lives.
 
Misterveritis said:
Do you believe this was about intelligence gathering? Did Washington tell his soldiers "Don't make your prisoners uncomfortable"?
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Do you realize that the allegations in this report go far beyond making someone feel uncomfortable? Is your normal MO to downplay the severity of things if they don't fit your narrative? It's getting getting laughably predictable.
 
CanadaJohn said:
Fine words - almost as disingenuous as most everything in an Obama speech.
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So George Washington was in favor of mistreating/harming/injuring prisoners if it served a purpose? You'd have an easier time arguing that the Leafs are going to win the next Stanley Cup. ;)
 
Henrin said:
McCain was a prisoner of war, so he is probably a bit more open to the idea torture is unacceptable than his peers in the party that came from some rich family somewhere and failed history class.
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With all due respect to McCain, the enhanced interrogations of terrorists by the CIA was nothing compared to the torture McCain faced in Vietnam.
 
CanadaJohn said:
I agree with President GW Bush.

I agree with Vice-President Dick Cheney.

I agree with the leadership of the CIA.

These are all honorable men, doing honorable things at a time when America needed such leadership.

As Vice-President Cheney said recently, "these agents deserve commendation, not criticism".

All that said, I'm glad the report was released.
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As an American, I would prefer that my country not define honor in terms of hurting other people. Perhaps you could argue that torture is necessary or even morally permissible, but to call the decision to order and allow torture honorable shows a reverence for sadism that should not be present in any society that values human life.
 
Henrin said:
I have faith in none of them. :mrgreen:
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Considering how much faith you are putting in the report, you certainly do have faith in some of them.
 
Hatuey said:
So George Washington was in favor of mistreating/harming/injuring prisoners if it served a purpose? You'd have an easier time arguing that the Leafs are going to win the next Stanley Cup. ;)
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No, George Washington wasn't "in favor" - but I'll bet his fine words were simply for public consumption and not for tactical, in the moment use. America has a fine history of espousing virtue and when necessary acting otherwise. This report is a political document issued by a Democrat party that has now lost control of both Houses of Congress and wants to take their last shot at the evil GW Bush. It's pathetic what depths Democrats will sink for perceived political gain.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
As an American, I would prefer that my country not define honor in terms of hurting other people. Perhaps you could argue that torture is necessary or even morally permissible, but to call the decision to order and allow torture honorable shows a reverence for sadism that should not be present in any society that values human life.
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In war a government's solemn duty is to victory, by any means necessary, and to nothing else. It is impossible to imagine any government anywhere conceding defeat and then announcing to its people that although victory had been possible it was eschewed because questionable means would have been required to achieve it.
 
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