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Thread: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    This is beyond blindness, W surrounded himself with neocons that carried out their agenda (re: ideological goals, ie politically motivated goals) and he did not move away from the multiple follies until very late in the game and only to the slightest degree.....without regret.

    And yet we still have his supporters here and outside of the US (!!!) who still claim he was honorable in light of so many HUGE failures. The blindness brought about by confused loyalty is unbelievable.
    .....but not nearly as unbelievable as the blindness brought about by partisanship.

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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    To be fair, the majority of Americans were manipulated after 9/11 using very skillfully crafted propaganda (with the media's help) into supporting everything the Bush (Cheney) administration did. I don't blame the manipulated so much, I blame the manipulators who used the tragedy of 9/11 to carry out plans that were in the waiting long before the attacks took place.

    The neocons said it would take a 'Pearl Harbor event' to get America on board with their conquest of the Middle East. Well, they got it, and they took advantage of it.
    Now, I too disagree with the sensibility of the redesign of the middle east and find this interrogation report troubling, but this assessment seems rather infantile. You blame the "manipulators" for carrying "out plans that were in the waiting long before the attacks took place." What, may I ask, do you presume most policy analysts and former government officials do in the course of their advocacy? Of course there was a platform for what they wanted. I would expect nothing less. Are we lead to believe that sensible liberals (in the past or currently) have no policy prescriptions for how to deal with Israel or America's position in foreign affairs and if these folks get into positions of influence they won't try to shape foreign policy? Get real, Amadeus.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Now, I too disagree with the sensibility of the redesign of the middle east, but this assessment seems rather infantile. You blame the "manipulators" for carrying "out plans that were in the waiting long before the attacks took place." What, may I ask, do you presume most policy analysts and former government officials do in the course of their advocacy? Of course there was a platform for what they wanted. I would expect nothing less. Are we lead to believe that sensible liberals have no policy prescriptions for how to deal with Israel or America's position in foreign affairs and if these folks get into positions of influence they won't try to shape foreign policy? Get real, Amadeus.
    I have no idea what your point is, or what you're defending.

    Do you think that the government using the tragedy of 9/11 to manipulate the public into waging war on an innocent nation is just politics as usual? Maybe I read your post incorrectly.

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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    Do you think that the government using the tragedy of 9/11 to manipulate the public into waging war on an innocent nation is just politics as usual? Maybe I read your post incorrectly.
    An "innocent nation" is overly generous, but yes, I do. Liberals would be correct to presume that the problems with a Bush administration overreach would likewise require them to develop a coherent series of recommendations for an interventionist, but internationalist American foreign policy. It's not as if sections of American liberalism haven't had "long standing plans" themselves. Are you somehow expecting advocacy groups (made up of the previously mentioned demographics) would not think their platform would do America service for the challenges it experienced?
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by tech30528 View Post
    Well as I've said I'm glad we have some people capable of doing the dirty work. I would much rather get information from these terrorists to prevent another attack than have to apologize to the families of the next victims because we wanted to make a show of being nicer than they are. The people being tortured for information would think nothing of doing the same to any of us just because we do not follow their religion. This is not a black and white world. Sometimes all the options are less than ideal. I suppose the guy in black in the beheading videos should be rehabilitated, right?
    It is stunning how many like you do not grasp the difference between our fighting in Iraq and the occupation - and the current matter of ISIS.

    Do you also think the American Civil War and WWII were the same with the same enemies too?

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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    An "innocent nation" is overly generous, but yes, I do. Liberals would be correct to presume that the problems with a Bush administration overreach would likewise require them to develop a coherent series of recommendations for an interventionist, but internationalist American foreign policy. Are you somehow expecting advocacy groups (made up of the previously mentioned demographics) would not think their platform would do America service for the challenges it experienced?
    There's a difference between being an interventionist, and even a neocon, and using a national tragedy to manipulate the American public into supporting a war against an innocent (of the attack) nation. Are you arguing that this wasn't done, or that I'm naive in believing that every government wouldn't do the exact same thing?

    If it's the latter, then we have no argument on substance. I'm just not as cynical as you.

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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    But on the other hand if I had intelligence of an attack planned that could kill thousands of people, how much pain would any of us be willing to inflict on an individual to get the information that could thwart it? To not honestly answer that question makes one a self-righteous hypocrite.
    These "ifs" don't work, do they?

    IF a tortured person's relative undertook a terrorist attack that killed thousands would that then change your mind to opposing torture?

    It was Secretary Donald Rumsfeld who asked the question that I think we are increasingly seeing the answer to: "Are we killing them faster than we are creating them?" That also applies to torture.


    If some foreign power invaded the USA and took one of my family members and tortured that family member? I would want to kill every person of that foreign country I could.

    The false claim of those defending torture in this instance is 2-fold.

    First, most were not terrorists. They were suspected of being terrorists and the torture was to determine if they were or were not. It was decided most were not, so it was torturing (for months and years) innocent people - people of another country we invaded claiming we were doing so to help them.

    Second, it is massively counter productive as it is a massive recruitment tool for fighters including acts of terrorism of "the enemy."

    It is possible the self righteous hypocrite is those of your view, as there is nothing showing significant benefits of torture, and mounting evidence that it causes more violence, more terrorism, more opposition within the other country, more domestic opposition here at home, is a recruit tool for the enemy, creates lifelong hatred and causes more American casualties. It also replaced our claim that we are the good guys to instead define us as brutal conquerors and foreign invaders of evil actions and intentions.

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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    There's a difference between being an interventionist, and even a neocon, and using a national tragedy to manipulate the American public into supporting a war against an innocent (of the attack) nation. Are you arguing that this wasn't done, or that I'm naive in believing that every government wouldn't do the exact same thing?

    If it's the latter, then we have no argument on substance. I'm just not as cynical as you.
    The people you are looking at had thought that an expanded war was necessary to deal with the long-standing threat of international terrorism. This concern of theirs had existed since the 1980s, when they were looking at whether or not the Soviet Union supported such efforts (dubiously). Nevertheless, they had long believed that terrorism was a social and ideological problem which required a new method of dealing with it in comparison with the previous police model. In addition to other recommendations, they thought that this was the best path to dealing with the pathologies that plagued the West and international governance. As such, yes, they developed a coherent set of policy recommendations over 20 years and several years before coming to positions of power, had drafted them up to American legislators and the President. When 9/11 happened they saw it as a vindication of their world view and the need to act vigorously in a new direction.

    So no, I expect former officials and analysts to not only think about what America should do about any given set of issues it deals with, but also advocate for that. It's not at all uncommon for the more successful members of these groups to find themselves scattered throughout any given administration and helping influence the tone of an administration's policy outlook. It's been a staple of 20th century American foreign (and domestic) policy. It's nothing sinister. It's just the way it works. We think we know what's right and we organize like-minded people to move in the direction we think is best. It's just that because of the internet, left-wingers and internet libertarians started creating ghost stories out of PNAC. It was completely out of proportion and relied on this stupid idea that having an agenda is a bad thing. They may not even see that the organizational efforts more to their liking had agendas in the same way and often had influence with politicians as well. Are we supposed to believe that liberals wouldn't see 9/11 through their prism and entertain ideas that other advocates for certain policy changes thought were prudent? I mean, really. That's how government is supposed to work.

    That they were largely wrong about what they thought was sensible and needed is another matter.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 12-14-14 at 12:30 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    It is stunning how many like you do not grasp the difference between our fighting in Iraq and the occupation - and the current matter of ISIS.

    Do you also think the American Civil War and WWII were the same with the same enemies too?
    Nice try at baiting there. Not anywhere near truth, but that doesn't really matter to you does it?

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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    The people you are looking at had thought that an expanded war was necessary to deal with the long-standing threat of international terrorism. This concern of theirs had existed since the 1980s, when they were looking at whether or not the Soviet Union supported such efforts (dubiously). Nevertheless, they had long believed that terrorism was a social and ideological problem which required a new method of dealing with it in comparison with the previous police model. In addition to other recommendations, they thought that this was the best path to dealing with the pathologies that plagued the West and international governance. As such, yes, they developed a coherent set of policy recommendations over 20 years and several years before coming to positions of power, had drafted them up to American legislators and the President. When 9/11 happened they saw it as a vindication of their world view and the need to act vigorously in a new direction.

    So no, I expect former officials and analysts to not only think about what America should do about any given set of issues it deals with, but also advocate for that. It's not at all uncommon for the more successful members of these groups to find themselves scattered throughout any given administration and helping influence the tone of an administration's policy outlook. It's been a staple of 20th century American foreign (and domestic) policy. It's nothing sinister. It's just the way it works. We think we know what's right and we organize like-minded people to move in the direction we think is best. It's just that because of the internet, left-wingers and internet libertarians started creating ghost stories out of PNAC. It was completely out of proportion and relied on this stupid idea that having an agenda is a bad thing. They may not even see that the organizational efforts more to their liking had agendas in the same way and often had influence with politicians as well. Are we supposed to believe that liberals wouldn't see 9/11 through their prism and entertain ideas that other advocates for certain policy changes thought were prudent? I mean, really. That's how government is supposed to work.

    That they were largely wrong about what they thought was sensible and needed is another matter.
    The law enforcement model of counterterrorist operations is inherently reactive, and limited by the requirement to bring cases to court. The warfare model allows counterterrorist operators to seize and retain the initiative, and dispenses with the complications brought on by legal proceedings.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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