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Thread: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

  1. #321
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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
    I do. I'm also curious about this arbitrary number thats been conjured up. What if it was just 10,000 lives or only 1 life? Would he still do it? Would you? Where is the invisible line you have to cross before you decide you have no scruples? Then there's the location of the bomb. Does the place or the nationality of the people who would be killed factor into the decision to abandon ones principles? Would he bother if the bomb were in Mecca or Tehran? Would you?
    The number is one million precisely in order to provoke the question you posed: how many deaths make the question difficult? Location and nationality were selected to make the question real and accessible for Americans. And btw, there's an unexamined assumption lurking in your question. It's possible to make a strong case that the moral high ground is on the side of torturing one to save many.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Everything I said works inside what you stated the situation was.
    No. It does not.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  3. #323
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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I would call it saving a million straw men.
    I did not expect you to flinch so much.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  4. #324
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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by radioman View Post
    I think Dershowitz should stop watching re-runs of "24".
    Alan's Walter Mitty fantasies have him thinking he's Jack Bauer.
    I believe the problem preceded "24."
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  5. #325
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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    so are we good to go with increased taxes and single payer, then? after all, terrorists and NYC nukes are the only alternative.

    I would favor single payer over ACA, but your post is otherwise irrational.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  6. #326
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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    The 9/11 attacks were the "solemn duty" of the terrorists who committed them in order to defend their way of life against the threat the United States posed to it. It's good to know that you think their actions were honorable.
    They had the courage of their convictions. That is what makes them a tough opponent. The difference is that we try to protect innocent lives; they try to take them.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  7. #327
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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    I believe that Dershowitz wanted a court hearing before the torture began. Dershowitz's proposal wasn't great but it would be better than having virtually no oversight or consequences.

    The problem with torture is that torturers start enjoying it and want to to use more extreme pain, and torture as many people as possible. I think there should be a bit more of a presumption of guilt when there is no question that the torture was committed by the people on trial. In other words, torture should remain illegal with the possibility of a torturer having a reasonable justification in rare cases. More like the way police officers are routinely taken off duty and their badge and weapon confiscated after they shoot someone, no matter the circumstances.
    The Case for Torture Warrants - Alan M. Dershowitz

    www.alandershowitz.com/.../docs/torturewarrants.htmlAlan Dershowitz


    The Case for Torture Warrants. by Alan M. Dershowitz. Ó2002. Now that it has been disclosed that our government had information of “undetermined reliability”, ...
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  8. #328
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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    I would favor single payer over ACA, but your post is otherwise irrational.
    we agree on the former.

  9. #329
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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    OK, so you won't fall for the Republican Neocon hustle. Will you fall for the Democratic Neoliberal hustle? That's what we will get if Hillary Clinton wins in 2016.
    I'm admittedly unfamiliar with Neoliberalism, but it sure doesn't sound like my ideology:

    Neoliberalism

    Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan gave neo-liberalism a big boost in the 1980s. By then, many economists treated it as an unquestionable and inevitable truth – rather than as a vested economic construct – enabling Thatcher and Reagan to lead the neo-liberal ‘revolution’ with their rallying cries of "competition" and "efficiency." Allowing these mantras to shape all decisions regarding economic, political and social policy, and driven by a strict social Darwinism, neo-liberalists reshaped the face of the world economy in less than a decade. But while competition and efficiency govern life at the lowest levels of society and economy, transnational corporations still reign virtually unhindered in an almost monopolistic alliance.

    In a world driven by neo-liberalism, privatization is supposedly the answer to all problems. Privatization began in earnest in Britain under Thatcher, but soon spread to the US under Reagan. In the neo-liberal worldview, anything that has not been privatized is inefficient, and this informs the drive to privatize the public sectors, including things like health care, schooling, welfare and social security. But in order to privatize some public sector services, such as railroads, power grids and waterworks, neo-liberalists are hijacking systems that were constructed and maintained under a welfare state model.

  10. #330
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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I agree with President GW Bush.

    I agree with Vice-President Dick Cheney.

    I agree with the leadership of the CIA.

    These are all honorable men, doing honorable things at a time when America needed such leadership.

    As Vice-President Cheney said recently, "these agents deserve commendation, not criticism".

    All that said, I'm glad the report was released.
    They may well be honorable men, but there was nothing honorable about what they were doing. Call it a necessary evil if you must, but to call what they were doing honorable is to render the word meaningless.
    "Groups with guitars are on the way out, Mr. Epstein"

    Dick Rowe, A & R man
    Decca Records
    London, 1962

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