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Thread: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    I'm not a Democrat, and any Democrat who fell for the Neocon Hustle wouldn't get my vote if I were an American. But then again, I have principles.
    And I suppose your principles are different from other peoples' principles. It's what makes the world interesting.
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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Myh brother in law is British, and both of us are military history buffs, so we talk on military history stuff alot. I enjoy it because you get a somewhat different look at views of history than you get from Americans. And almost any time WW2 comes up in out talks, he mentions Dresden and he gets pissed. He is highly embarrassed that his home country was a major part of that, calling it "unnecessary and evil". It is kinda hard to disagree with that point of view. Hiroshima and Nagasaki where probably the same, though I think the case is less good for such. The sad truth however is that the targeting of civilians was done by every side on WW2, and I am thankful we have gotten better.

    Sorry for the rambling answer, but that is just how my mind works sometimes. The more straightforward answer would be that targeting civilians is wrong, was wrong at the time, was done at the time, and I cannot change what was done back then, and it is hard to work up a whole lot of outrage for events 70 years done. Much like with the events in the report being discussed in this thread, I hope we learn and act better in the future.
    Do you not feel though that their are some things that the civillian world are not supposed to know? I mean its been going on for thousands of years. You never hear about Roman soldiers burning and killing in Gaul, instead you hear about the battles and the bravery.
    Will there not always be an element of war that will bring out the worst in people?
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    I'm not a Democrat, and any Democrat who fell for the Neocon Hustle wouldn't get my vote if I were an American. But then again, I have principles.
    OK, so you won't fall for the Republican Neocon hustle. Will you fall for the Democratic Neoliberal hustle? That's what we will get if Hillary Clinton wins in 2016. The aims of Neocons and Neoliberals are the same, but the means of getting there are different. While Neocons want to bomb and invade the world into submission, Neoliberals want to use the banking system to starve the world into submission. Both philosophies are quite evil.
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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Do you not feel though that their are some things that the civillian world are not supposed to know? I mean its been going on for thousands of years. You never hear about Roman soldiers burning and killing in Gaul, instead you hear about the battles and the bravery.
    Will there not always be an element of war that will bring out the worst in people?
    The Romans burned, raped and slaughtered in Gaul. And the Roman sovereign knew about it. The sovereign should know everything or have access to it. This does not mean every detail. But it is absolutely necessary for protection of the citizenry in democracy for the citizens to know. How else can they be sure of the system of checks and balances?

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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Do you not feel though that their are some things that the civillian world are not supposed to know? I mean its been going on for thousands of years. You never hear about Roman soldiers burning and killing in Gaul, instead you hear about the battles and the bravery.
    Civilians should know as much as they possibly can about war to my mind. Since the military serves the civilian people, civilians should at least know what it is that is being done for them.

    Will there not always be an element of war that will bring out the worst in people?
    Absolutely, and also that brings out the best. I am reading on the North Africa campaign right now, and while there where some pretty horrific things done by both sides, there was also some pretty wonderful things done, sometimes side by side. During Operation Reservist, allied soldiers desperately tried to swim to shore, and while some French troops tried to rescue those swimming, others where casually picking them off with rifle fire. During the North Africa campaign, Wehrmacht medics often braved fire to treat Allied soldiers. And so on and so forth. This does not excuse, legally nor morally, excesses committed during war. A large part of why there are laws for how war can be waged is to help push soldiers to overcome those negative impulses that they all at times might want to do. War without laws is an even uglier thing than war with laws.
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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    My bet is all of those who are saying we should take the high ground and be the better people and all that bull**** live insulated from real harm. If I were in a position that my wife or kids were in danger I would do things to end it that would make people beg to die. We're not talking about people who commit petty crimes here, we are talking about people who plan and commit crimes against innocent people and are actually happy to die doing it. There is no reasoning with people like that. I don't much care what ethical standards armchair quarterbacks claim to have, I think in many cases they lack the backbone or the nerve to be close to real danger anyway. Most people are pretty soft. Personally I'm glad we have people like these interrogators and Chris Kyle to deal with these kind of enemies.

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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    That is very close to Dershowitz's own answer.
    I believe that Dershowitz wanted a court hearing before the torture began. Dershowitz's proposal wasn't great but it would be better than having virtually no oversight or consequences.

    The problem with torture is that torturers start enjoying it and want to to use more extreme pain, and torture as many people as possible. I think there should be a bit more of a presumption of guilt when there is no question that the torture was committed by the people on trial. In other words, torture should remain illegal with the possibility of a torturer having a reasonable justification in rare cases. More like the way police officers are routinely taken off duty and their badge and weapon confiscated after they shoot someone, no matter the circumstances.

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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by tech30528 View Post
    My bet is all of those who are saying we should take the high ground and be the better people and all that bull**** live insulated from real harm. If I were in a position that my wife or kids were in danger I would do things to end it that would make people beg to die. We're not talking about people who commit petty crimes here, we are talking about people who plan and commit crimes against innocent people and are actually happy to die doing it. There is no reasoning with people like that. I don't much care what ethical standards armchair quarterbacks claim to have, I think in many cases they lack the backbone or the nerve to be close to real danger anyway. Most people are pretty soft. Personally I'm glad we have people like these interrogators and Chris Kyle to deal with these kind of enemies.
    My bet is you have no idea what you are talking about.

    Use your head...for 'all of those who are saying we should take the high ground' to be true, then you are saying that every, single present or former member of the armed forces/police and fire departments 'live insulated from real harm'. Which is nonsense because I KNOW that not every one of them feels as you do.

    Maybe, those that have seen the real world understand it better and realize that to act like those you hate makes you no better the those you hate.

    I have been in a military, been in jail (non-military related) and 'been' several other things...and I KNOW that torture is wrong. And I also know that it is sometimes easier to let oneself take the easy way out - the lowlife way out.
    And what separates the good from the bad, IMO, is the good choose not to give in to anger, rage, cruelty and dehumanization. And the bad do.

    And the day the entire world believes as you do is the day I no longer want any part of this world.

    'Better to be dead and cool, then alive and uncool'
    Last edited by DA60; 12-10-14 at 05:06 PM.
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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Sen. Bob Kerrey: Partisan torture report fails America
    A former Navy Seal, Democrat, former governor and Medal of Honor recipient, tears the Democrats on the Senate Intelligence committee a new asshole for their one-sided partisanship.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: John McCain CIA Torture Report Senate Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    My bet is you have no idea what you are talking about.

    Use your head...for 'all of those who are saying we should take the high ground' to be true, then you are saying that every, single present or former member of the armed forces/police and fire departments 'live insulated from real harm'. Which is nonsense because I KNOW that not every one of them feels as you do.

    Maybe, those that have seen the real world understand it better and realize that to act like those you hate makes you no better the those you hate.

    I have been in a military, been in jail (non-military related) and 'been' several other things...and I KNOW that torture is wrong. And I also know that it is sometimes easier to let oneself take the easy way out - the lowlife way out.
    And what separates the good from the bad, IMO, is the good choose not to give in to anger, rage, cruelty and dehumanization. And the bad do.

    And the day the entire world believes as you do is the day I no longer want any part of this world.

    'Better to be dead and cool, then alive and uncool'
    Well as I've said I'm glad we have some people capable of doing the dirty work. I would much rather get information from these terrorists to prevent another attack than have to apologize to the families of the next victims because we wanted to make a show of being nicer than they are. The people being tortured for information would think nothing of doing the same to any of us just because we do not follow their religion. This is not a black and white world. Sometimes all the options are less than ideal. I suppose the guy in black in the beheading videos should be rehabilitated, right?

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