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Thread: Anti-gay activist Scott Lively's crimes-against-humanity case to proceed after federa

  1. #21
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    Re: Anti-gay activist Scott Lively's crimes-against-humanity case to proceed after fe

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncensored2008 View Post
    Remember the old days, when Americans were free to think and speak any idea they wished?

    Well, we're Obamunists now, that nasty 1st amendment is a thing of the past. Views contrary to party canon will be severely punished.
    The US Constitution does not follow Americans to every corner of the world...It only works here in the good ol US of A.

    The Pastor will have to prove he has free speech in Uganda.


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    Re: Anti-gay activist Scott Lively's crimes-against-humanity case to proceed after fe

    Quote Originally Posted by Amandi View Post
    Well, unless someone can come up with a law or something he violated, I am totally against the law suit. I dont know about the ruling of the Federal appeals court though; it seems they said something similar to "they cant rule using the reason the plantiff provided."
    The appeals court rejected their request for a 'writ of mandamus' which is an order from a higher court to a lower court commanding it to act in a certain way, in this case to dismiss the claim. These are exceedingly rare orders meant to control abuses in lower courts, but they are almost never granted so it isn't surprising this was denied. However I'd be very surprised if one way or another this claim isn't defeated.

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    Re: Anti-gay activist Scott Lively's crimes-against-humanity case to proceed after fe

    Quote Originally Posted by 1750Texan View Post
    The US Constitution does not follow Americans to every corner of the world...It only works here in the good ol US of A.

    The Pastor will have to prove he has free speech in Uganda.
    But it's the US court system, yes? If he were being tried by Uganda's government, then yes. But ours would have to respect the rights we've established. I don't know, lots of groups try to influence foreign and international law, is that really a crime? And if so, are we really using it equally? If it's another one of those selectively enforced laws, we need to get rid of it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Anti-gay activist Scott Lively's crimes-against-humanity case to proceed after fe

    Quote Originally Posted by 1750Texan View Post
    The US Constitution does not follow Americans to every corner of the world...It only works here in the good ol US of A.

    The Pastor will have to prove he has free speech in Uganda.
    No... that isn't true. If you're being tried or sued in a US court you are always entitled to your constitutional rights. The Alien Torts Act doesn't preclude those rights. It couldn't.

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    Re: Anti-gay activist Scott Lively's crimes-against-humanity case to proceed after fe

    Quote Originally Posted by 1750Texan View Post
    The democrats of Uganda? This case is being brought by an alien entity in US District court using US Law.
    Suit in US court generally regards product liability for American made goods sold in other countries. Acts of speech in other nations, are not subject to prohbition by America Courts, or at least they were not when we still had civil rights.

    But hey, it's good to be Obamunists, nyet?

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    Re: Anti-gay activist Scott Lively's crimes-against-humanity case to proceed after fe

    Quote Originally Posted by 1750Texan View Post
    The US Constitution does not follow Americans to every corner of the world...It only works here in the good ol US of A.

    The Pastor will have to prove he has free speech in Uganda.
    The U.S. Constitution apparently doesn't follow Americans into U.S. Courts. Uganda is not hearing the complaint.

  7. #27
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    Re: Anti-gay activist Scott Lively's crimes-against-humanity case to proceed after fe

    K
    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I can agree with you in this regard. I also agree with you that do not appear to have violated any law. What apears to have happened is:

    - 3 US citizens (their socio political views are not really material), gave a series of "juiced up, fired up" presentations in another nation during which the activities of a rival socio political group were exaggerated.

    - The US citizens did not call for violence, they were not volunteer fighters, and they had no ability to actually harm anyone in that nation.

    -After the locals got juiced up, they passed a series of harsh laws, and some private citizens of that nation actually did harm gays. Meanwhile the US citizens distanced themselves (too a degree) from the laws and tried, though only to a degree, to soften the imapct of their "fired up" speeches.

    - The US citizens then get sued by members of the harmed community for violating their human rights.... .

    The Ugandans who were harmed need to sue the Ugandans who actually harmed them. Likewise, the liability of the US citizens should be restricted to cases where the US citizens actually called for violence.

    In short one can be an inflammatory Christian, Muslim or secularist, who rails for or against religion, but unless one calls for violence, or perhaps in situations where it can be definively proven that they knew that their "fired up" speeches would lead to violence, it is just free speech.
    While I despise what is happening in Uganda and the action of the three men from the US, unless someone can demonstrate the US law that was broken, I do not feel US courts have jurisdiction in this case. PS, not disagreeing with you just clarifying my position better for other readers.

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    Re: Anti-gay activist Scott Lively's crimes-against-humanity case to proceed after fe

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Call to violence would mean just that: The speaker is commanding or encouraging his listeners to use violence. One can also use euphamisms such as "special treatment" when calling for violence.

    Any definitions short of that lead to a very slippery slope of: No, you did not call for violence, but I dont like your speech. Furthermore, someone might have been partially influenced by your speech to actually commit violent acts.

    The only exception to the above definition that I could see would be where it could be definitively shown that he knew that his speech would be taken as a call for violence:
    - "Hey, everytime you have made these speeches, people have been attacked shortly afterwards, please not give anymore under these circumstances". or

    - "I am a Ugandan police officer, please dont give the speech against the "X' people now- there is an aggitated lynch mob outside this buidling looking for excuses to harm "X" people."
    Yes, it's not a line you can draw objectively. Intent isn't easy to measure. That's why courts have to apply a "reasonable person" standard to a lot of things. The lack of a clear line is why we have a court system to deal with it. It's not perfect, but it's the best we got. What's the alternative? Make it legal to call for someone's death?


    The message has been "these people will kidnap and sodomize your children to recruit them, and destroy your marriage, and your society, you have to fight back." He said that homosexuals will try to blend in to get at your child to prey on them.

    They are so far from normalcy that they’re killers. They’re serial killers, mass murderers. … This is the kind of person that it takes to run a gas chamber, right? Or to do a mass murder, like—the Rwandan stuff probably involved these guys.
    Thats right. Gays are genocidal. They are insatiable sexual predators and they are coming for your children.


    Watch the documentary I linked.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Anti-gay activist Scott Lively's crimes-against-humanity case to proceed after fe

    Lively violated no US law, and since it is the USA where jurisdiction is being sought, he will walk, and frankly, it doesn't even go to trial.

    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: Anti-gay activist Scott Lively's crimes-against-humanity case to proceed after fe

    This case is a slippery slope if there ever was one.

    Despicable as this guy is, it doesn't appear as if he did anything more than give some speeches. Unless it can be shown(and it hasn't yet from what I've seen) that he called for violence against gays I would hope that the case gets dismissed. The Pandora's box that this would open if followed through to a conviction would be bottomless.

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