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Hundreds of Police Killings Are Uncounted in Federal Stats

Ikari said:
Exactly, how many? It's a good question. All incidents of cops killing citizens should be seriously investigated and wrongdoing swiftly punished.

What's our track record on that?
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1 good shooting in Ferguson. And how much in property damage?

I agree they should all be investigated. They all are. Talk to your DA if you don't like the way it occurs:

http://www.sjpd.org/BOI/Homicide/OIS_FAQ.html

Just one of a bunch of ways I'm sure.
 
From the OP...

WASHINGTON—When 24-year-old Albert Jermaine Payton wielded a knife in front of the police in this city’s southeast corner, officers opened fire and killed him.Yet according to national statistics intended to track police killings, Mr. Payton’s death in August 2012 never happened. It is one of hundreds of homicides by law-enforcement agencies between 2007 and 2012 that aren’t included in records kept by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
A Wall Street Journal analysis of the latest data from 105 of the country’s largest police agencies found more than 550 police killings during those years were missing from the national tally or, in a few dozen cases, not attributed to the agency involved. The result: It is nearly impossible to determine how many people are killed by the police each year.
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The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that the FBI, for whatever reason, is not getting all the data. It also raises the question of why the FBI is responsible for collecting and maintaining this data in the first place? They're a law enforcement agency, not a statistics warehouse.
 
stonewall50 said:
1 good shooting in Ferguson. And how much in property damage?

I agree they should all be investigated. They all are. Talk to your DA if you don't like the way it occurs:

Officer Involved Shootings - FAQs

Just one of a bunch of ways I'm sure.
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The riots weren't justified, but that doesn't mean we take the chains off government. I want to ensure proper protocol, restraint, and monitoring of government force.
 
Ikari said:
Exactly, how many? It's a good question. All incidents of cops killing citizens should be seriously investigated and wrongdoing swiftly punished.

What's our track record on that?
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It's not a national "our", it's a local "our" and you'd know if you were aware of what was happening in your community. Again, police are local.
 
brothern said:
Yeah, in my home state of Wisconsin, in the 129 years since police and fire commissions were created, there hasn't been a SINGLE ruling by a police department, an inquest or a police commission that a shooting was unjustified. Can you believe that? In the entire history of Wisconsin as a state, never has there ever been a police reviewing committee that has found that a cop acted in a irresponsible or irrational manner when killing another person.

Goes to show how sensible it is to arm high school dropouts with a gun and a badge. Makes for pretty justified cop shootings.
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What are you talking about?
 
brothern said:
Yeah, in my home state of Wisconsin, in the 129 years since police and fire commissions were created, there hasn't been a SINGLE ruling by a police department, an inquest or a police commission that a shooting was unjustified. Can you believe that? In the entire history of Wisconsin as a state, never has there ever been a police reviewing committee that has found that a cop acted in a irresponsible or irrational manner when killing another person.

Goes to show how sensible it is to arm high school dropouts with a gun and a badge. Makes for pretty justified cop shootings.
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That's for State police. What about Sheriffs and local police?
 
brothern said:
Yeah, in my home state of Wisconsin, in the 129 years since police and fire commissions were created, there hasn't been a SINGLE ruling by a police department, an inquest or a police commission that a shooting was unjustified. Can you believe that? In the entire history of Wisconsin as a state, never has there ever been a police reviewing committee that has found that a cop acted in a irresponsible or irrational manner when killing another person.

Goes to show how sensible it is to arm high school drops with a gun and a badge. Makes for pretty justified cop shootings.
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3 Issues win this:

1) Should we change the standard of evidence for an officer involved shooting? Should it be guilty until proven innocent?

2) Can any of the officer involved shootings be proven to be unjust?

3) The standards for Law Enforcement now in most places require a college degree. Not high school drop outs.
 
clownboy said:
It's not a national "our", it's a local "our" and you'd know if you were aware of what was happening in your community. Again, police are local.
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It is a national "our" as our militarized police seem to act similarly on a national level. A nueron is local, but understanding the brain isn't localized to a nueron. Individual pricincts are local, but the overall structure runs on a hive mentality. Them vs. us. The Police vs. the People. Thus this becomes national concern.

Cops in the US kill far more than any other country. America imprisons more people per capita than any other nation on Earth. These are national concerns.
 
Ikari said:
It is a national "our" as our militarized police seem to act similarly on a national level. A nueron is local, but understanding the brain isn't localized to a nueron. Individual pricincts are local, but the overall structure runs on a hive mentality. Them vs. us. The Police vs. the People. Thus this becomes national concern.

Cops in the US kill far more than any other country. America imprisons more people per capita than any other nation on Earth. These are national concerns.
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No, it's just more fodder for folks that don't seem to understand that there are state, local and federal governments. You lose focus with your community, where the real action is. And no, you are absolutely wrong with the hive mentality bull****. Local departments have policies and procedures that suit their locality. What works for policing in Berkeley CA will not cut it in Detroit MI.
 
American said:
Okay, so where is the OP trying to go with this?
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As far as I can tell he is patiently attempting to educate the ignorant and enlighten those with constrained or non existant mental capacity. The difficulties of his task are significant because of the barrier of mental deficiency. I would guess he doesn't see all the cop killings within the voluminous data sources maintained by those who represent integrity and is perplexed that the relevant data does not support the integrity of said representatives. My own suspicion is that, like all government, they lie to us with obfuscation and distortion. I'm lucky because I live rural and the cops see their most direct need as social baby sitters and domestic problem solvers and are a real credit to their communities and their own selves.
They are an exception.
 
clownboy said:
That's for State police. What about Sheriffs and local police?
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That's for all police in the state of Wisconsin. We've just recently passed a bill to create independent reviews of police-caused homicides. Sparked by, yes, a police office killing a 21-year old Kenosha son in front of his mother and sister and getting away with it.

In April, Wisconsin became the first state to require that fatal shootings by police be investigated by at least two investigators outside of the agency that employs the officer in question.

In 129 years, no police officer in the state had been found by a review panel to be at fault for killing anyone*, and advocates who fought for the law believed more officers would be brought to justice if they weren’t judged by their own.

Clarification added Sept. 23: An earlier version of this article incorrectly stated that no officer had been found at fault for killing someone.
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In investigating police shootings, Wisconsin changed the game - or did it? | Al Jazeera America

stonewall50 said:
3 Issues win this: 1) Should we change the standard of evidence for an officer involved shooting? Should it be guilty until proven innocent?
2) Can any of the officer involved shootings be proven to be unjust?
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Yes, the police commission rulings have been overturned. In fact with this new law, we're seeing the first time the police taking responsibility for their actions:

The Milwaukee police officer who fatally shot Dontre Hamilton at Red Arrow Park has been fired because he did not follow department procedures for dealing with emotionally disturbed people, Chief Edward Flynn announced Wednesday. The officer, Christopher Manney, did not use excessive force when he shot Hamilton 14 times, Flynn said; rather, the officer did not follow department rules in the moments leading up to the shooting.

...

Milwaukee County District Attorney John Chisholm has given no time frame regarding when he plans to make a decision about criminal charges against Manney. Milwaukee officer in fatal Red Arrow Park shooting fired
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stonewall50 said:
3) The standards for Law Enforcement now in most places require a college degree. Not high school drop outs.
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An estimated 16% of departments had some type of college requirement, including 9% with a 2-year degree requirement.

Most = 16% ? http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/lpd07.pdf
 
clownboy said:
No, it's just more fodder for folks that don't seem to understand that there are state, local and federal governments. You lose focus with your community, where the real action is. And no, you are absolutely wrong with the hive mentality bull****. Local departments have policies and procedures that suit their locality. What works for policing in Berkeley CA will not cut it in Detroit MI.
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When it becomes a systematic problem instead of local (as this is), then there is a problem with the system itself.

Called statistics, you may want to study up on it.
 
Ikari said:
When it becomes a systematic problem instead of local (as this is), then there is a problem with the system itself.

Called statistics, you may want to study up on it.
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Interestingly enough I took a fair number of stats courses in my time at universities. There is one absolute truism that any good stats prof will remind you of: "there are three types of liars, liars, damn liars and statistics".

That call to authority you do not possess aside, the systems are local, not federal.
 
clownboy said:
No, it's just more fodder for folks that don't seem to understand that there are state, local and federal governments. You lose focus with your community, where the real action is. And no, you are absolutely wrong with the hive mentality bull****. Local departments have policies and procedures that suit their locality. What works for policing in Berkeley CA will not cut it in Detroit MI.
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Well apparently in both Berkeley CA, Detroit MI and a whole plethora of police departments, those policies and procedures include "shoot first, ask questions later" resulting in an staggering number of civilian deaths that are -- according to the WSJ -- not even accurately being recorded at the FBI.

Which, yes, really aggravates me.
 
brothern said:
Well apparently in both Berkeley CA, Detroit MI and a whole plethora of police departments, those policies and procedures include "shoot first, ask questions later" resulting in an staggering number of civilian deaths that are -- according to the WSJ -- not even accurately being recorded at the FBI.
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First, Berkeley not so much, surrounding areas like Oakland, yes. And it's not a staggering number. Again, the only reason the FBI gathers those stats are for use by politicians when they want to preen and posture. There is no other use for them. Now I could see a practical use for the justice department to gather local stats in case a department develops a streak. But no need to aggregate the stats.
 
clownboy said:
Interestingly enough I took a fair number of stats courses in my time at universities. There is one absolute truism that any good stats prof will remind you of: "there are three types of liars, liars, damn liars and statistics".

That call to authority you do not possess aside, the systems are local, not federal.
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The systems are pseudo local, but behave similarly and demonstrate the same set of failures. That's a systematic breakdown, not local. That means that nationally there is a problem.

You should ask for a refund from those University stats classes, obviously they didn't take.
 
Jack Fabulous said:
From the OP...


The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that the FBI, for whatever reason, is not getting all the data. It also raises the question of why the FBI is responsible for collecting and maintaining this data in the first place?
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Because... it's part of the FBI's job?

FBI -- Uniform Crime Reporting

They collect national crime statistics; it's a routine part of their job. Every nation has an interest, if not a duty, to collect this kind of data, and there is nothing unconstitutional about it.

In addition, it is often the job of the FBI to investigate civil rights abuses, corruption and/or abuse by police departments. Collecting data helps with this task.
 
Ikari said:
The systems are pseudo local, but behave similarly and demonstrate the same set of failures. That's a systematic breakdown, not local. That means that nationally there is a problem.

You should ask for a refund from those University stats classes, obviously they didn't take.
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Yeah, right, and there are rapist nuns on the loose in Chicago. You'd understand that reference if you ever had actually taken a stats course.

And no, they are not "pseudo local", NOT in any federal sense. Perhaps in the sense that each state makes law and sometimes mandates policy for the local departments.
 
clownboy said:
The CDC is federal, police are not. So the FBI data gathering has a bug. It's just data used for politics and showing off. The locals track this in their jurisdictions where the data is used for something useful.
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It shouldn't be news that federal agencies keep shoddy statistics. The OP makes it sound like these shootings aren't documented at all, which is obviously false.
 
brothern said:
That's for all police in the state of Wisconsin. We've just recently passed a bill to create independent reviews of police-caused homicides. Sparked by, yes, a police office killing a 21-year old Kenosha son in front of his mother and sister and getting away with it.



In investigating police shootings, Wisconsin changed the game - or did it? | Al Jazeera America


Yes, the police commission rulings have been overturned. In fact with this new law, we're seeing the first time the police taking responsibility for their actions:



An estimated 16% of departments had some type of college requirement, including 9% with a 2-year degree requirement.

Most = 16% ? http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/lpd07.pdf
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1) but is that a change in the standard of evidence? Is a copy guilty until proven innocent?

2) Good luck getting on without a degree or veteran's preference. Most cities would rather higher degrees. I don't know if city governments can say "you can't apply without a degree." Fair treatment.
 
Visbek said:
Because... it's part of the FBI's job?

FBI -- Uniform Crime Reporting

They collect national crime statistics; it's a routine part of their job. Every nation has an interest, if not a duty, to collect this kind of data, and there is nothing unconstitutional about it.

In addition, it is often the job of the FBI to investigate civil rights abuses, corruption and/or abuse by police departments. Collecting data helps with this task.
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I never said it wasn't necessary and I never implied that there was anything unconstitutional about it. Sheesh.:roll:
 
American said:
So basically Obama and Holder are just talking out their asses about cases like Brown and Martin being endemic of racism in American justice; because they don't even have the data to prove it.
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The main problem in the present cases is the obvious loss of legitimacy the legal system has had. A society cannot be maintained without legitimacy. So we had better get to work on fixing it.
 
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