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What Amnesty Has Already Done to America

eohrnberger said:
The Obama administration changed the way that they are counting them, so there's no telling what's accurate anymore. This may be by design, but who's to say. Didn't know that this accounting system needed revision.
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Mm-hmm...I get it - if the numbers don't say what you want to hear, just claim that they've been changed or otherwise falsified.

So welfare for nations is going work better than welfare for people? :lamo
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Which do you want to pay for - building up the Mexican economy to where they don't want so badly to come to America...or to pay for what happens when we have millions more illegals coming across the border? Either way, you DO pay. You'll pay to make things better for them...or you'll pay for what happens when they're here making things worse for us.

But you DO pay, either way.

I don't see where snipers stationed every 2 miles along the border with shoot to kill order would use up as much tax payer money, and I would imagine that it'd be effective.
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YEAH! Let the snipers shoot the girls, the young mothers, the children! Leave the babies in the desert to rot!

Maybe that kind of logic works just fine in right-wing circles (not to mention over on stormfront.org), but in the real world, most Americans would NEVER stand for such idiocy.
 
apdst said:
We should annex Mexico, Americanize the whole place and add another 10, or 12 states to the union.
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"Let's make the largest expansion of entitlement programs in American history."

-Apdst
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Mm-hmm...I get it - if the numbers don't say what you want to hear, just claim that they've been changed or otherwise falsified.
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I didn't say anything about falsifying numbers, I'm saying the measurement changed, and since they APPEAR to be better for the administration, they are crowing about it. Truth is, by changing the measurement means you can't compare the numbers on the old measurement system, and that'd exactly what Obama and his admin have been doing, a direct comparison under two different measuring systems. Surely you'll admit that this is inconsistent.

Glen Contrarian said:
Which do you want to pay for - building up the Mexican economy to where they don't want so badly to come to America...or to pay for what happens when we have millions more illegals coming across the border? Either way, you DO pay. You'll pay to make things better for them...or you'll pay for what happens when they're here making things worse for us.

But you DO pay, either way.
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As if we need yet more people riding on the backs of the tax payers, this time an entire nation! My God Man! Are you insane even suggesting that the US should do this? What a terrible precedent to set. We'll NEVER get the Mexicans off of our backs if we do.

Glen Contrarian said:
YEAH! Let the snipers shoot the girls, the young mothers, the children! Leave the babies in the desert to rot!

Maybe that kind of logic works just fine in right-wing circles (not to mention over on stormfront.org), but in the real world, most Americans would NEVER stand for such idiocy.
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Just as most Americans are not standing for the open border idiocy, or the Obamnesty idiocy, or a lot of other of the left-wing agenda politics.

A sovereign nation has a right to secure it's borders. Give up that right, you are no longer a sovereign nation. I know the concept is foreign to you, but it's the principals of the matter.
 
Empirica said:
Imagine a Comprehensive Immigration Reform that leads to amnesty for a minimum of 20 million illegals_
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I can imagine exactly such a thing_

I imagine that the US will do very well, if it increases the amount of legal immigration, focusing on people under 35, and gives the undocumented immigrants who are already here a path to citizenship_

It cannot come soon enough for me_


America will not survive the "fundamental change" Barack Obama has promised and is now setting in motion_
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You obviously have a limited idea of what Obama's executive order has actually accomplished_

He cannot change the law, he cannot hand out Green Cards, all he can do is defer deportations temporarily_

We should also note the US has actually done reasonably well since Reagan's amnesty -- or at the very least, its biggest challenges have had really nothing whatsoever to do with the presence of undocumented immigrants in the US:
- Crime rates have fallen quite consistently since the early 1990s
- the financial crisis of 2007 had nothing to do with undocumented immigrants
- the Dot-Com bubble had nothing to do with undocumented immigrants
- international terrorism? Also, nothing to do with undocumented immigrants
- income inequality? Yet another "nothing to do with undocumented immigrants"

In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to actually present a cogent argument about how undocumented immigrants are, in any way, a threat to the US_
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Which goes back to my whole point - build up the Mexican economy to where theirs isn't so much worse than our own, and voila! a heck of a lot less illegal immigration. Thank you for supporting my point!
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Yeah, at 18,000,000,000,000 in debt as a nation, let's do that.:roll:
No, I'm not supporting your drivel.
 
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As President Bush-41 said, "voodoo economics" .
 
What has amnesty done to America? Look at Southern California. Los Angeles is more or less a Mexican city today. That was not the case in the 60's when it was an American city.

Miami today is a latin, Spanish-Speaking city.

A lot of the Western United States is bilingual. States like Texas, Arizona, Colorado.

Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily. I do think, though, that we have lost something. Whereas Los Angeles used to be a vibrant city full of possibility and magic, today it's a dump.

In the 1960's, if you told people you were from Los Angeles, they'd look at you with envy. Today, they'd look at you with pity.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Which goes back to my whole point - build up the Mexican economy to where theirs isn't so much worse than our own, and voila! a heck of a lot less illegal immigration. Thank you for supporting my point!
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And when you are finished bankrupting the U.S. by sending money to Mexico, you can start on Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, etc., etc.
 
Visbek said:
In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to actually present a cogent argument about how undocumented immigrants are, in any way, a threat to the US_
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I suggest you go to a construction site or walk through a hotel and see how many jobs are being taken away from American workers because the illegal workers will work for pennies.

The only way to stop illegal immigration is to enforce the laws on the books against companies that hire illegals. If they can't get jobs, they'll leave, just like they have during the recession.

It was disgusting to see Jeh Johnson admit that companies in Washington DC were hiring illegals, yet he did not offer to enforce the laws on the books prohibiting it.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Which goes back to my whole point - build up the Mexican economy to where theirs isn't so much worse than our own, and voila! a heck of a lot less illegal immigration. Thank you for supporting my point!
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I'd say a huge number of American companies have moved to Mexico, so we have built up their economy, not that it does any good.

Mexico.jpg
 
Glen Contrarian said:
,

Guy, are you so naive that you think that people won't pick up and leave for greener fields? Such has been the way of humanity as long as there's been humans. Do you really think that it would be any different today?

Picture this: you've got a wife and kids...and you're stuck in poverty in a third-world nation, where if you even accidentally tick off the local strongman, you and your family might just disappear (because you've seen it happen so often to others), and you know down deep in your gut that if you can get your family over that border to America, your family will be safe, your children will have more opportunities for higher education and prosperity in a place that is MUCH safer then where you're at.

That's the kind of choice that so many parents face across the border...and their duty to do what's best for their children is a heck of a lot more important to them than to obey the law that would keep them from seeking better opportunities in a better land.

And of course I would not want our economy torn down to the level of Mexico's...which is why I said we need to BUILD Mexico's economy, not tear down our own.
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yet that is exactly what amnesty will do. it tears down our economy and lowers our standard of living. importing millions of low skill no skill workers doesn't improve the economy it continues to depress the economy and lower wages even further.

also what you will see before they pass amnesty is an even greater influx of people that have crossed our border illegally and need to be deported.
just like the few hundred thousand which just cross which need to be deported, but instead have been released into American society.

Obama Administration Inflating Deportation Numbers | National Review Online

no the president isn't deporting more people than the previous administration.


I'd vote for spending it on keeping them out, rather than enriching their corrupt government leaders.

There are some things that have to be earned, that have to be built by your own hand or hands to be properly appreciated and properly valued, as well as acquiring the needed skills and organizational and governmental structures to mange it effectively, and to strike the correct balance between the business and the social needs. A rich and well running economy with a profitable business sector and the properly balanced governmental oversight is one of them.
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I agree however the problem still exists that the government is corrupt and won't allow for what you suggest to happen. why? because then they lose control of the people. the drug cartels and the Mexican government isn't going to allow that to happen.

It's an evolution of the whole, which can't be obtained with some other country waving their magic wand and *poof* you have it, and can deal with it, at least not for the longer haul.
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which is why giving them amnesty is not an option. it doesn't fix the issue it only encourages more of the same.
 
Gill said:
I suggest you go to a construction site or walk through a hotel and see how many jobs are being taken away from American workers because the illegal workers will work for pennies.
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1) That doesn't give me any real information -- just your impression that "THEY TOOK OUR JERBS!!"

2) The evidence indicates that undocumented immigrants do not, in fact, take away jobs or drive down wages. Left and Right Agree: Immigrants Don't Take American Jobs - NationalJournal.com

3) Even if we ignore that evidence, small amounts of job losses did not, and are not going to bring about the total destruction of our nation.

4) Even if we ignore the evidence AND the lack of actual damage to jobs, giving these individuals a legitimate path to residency is only going to improve things. E.g. they will be subject to minimum wage laws; they will have to pay taxes, and so forth.


The only way to stop illegal immigration is to enforce the laws on the books against companies that hire illegals.
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lol

Yes, because no one can possibly be smart enough to thwart that system, e.g. by paying under the table.

By the way, in order for that to be possible, we need to accept that:
• Regulations can be beneficial
• Regulations can be effective
• Local / State / Federal governments can perform these functions effectively
• Either there won't be any mission creep, or any subsequent mission expansions will be acceptable or manageable
• We're going to need some sort of official database of actual citizens

As there is nothing special about the regulations or laws relating to hiring undocumented immigrants, I see no reason why one type of regulation can be beneficial and effective, and others cannot. Do you agree?
 
Visbek said:
1) That doesn't give me any real information -- just your impression that "THEY TOOK OUR JERBS!!"

2) The evidence indicates that undocumented immigrants do not, in fact, take away jobs or drive down wages. Left and Right Agree: Immigrants Don't Take American Jobs - NationalJournal.com

3) Even if we ignore that evidence, small amounts of job losses did not, and are not going to bring about the total destruction of our nation.

4) Even if we ignore the evidence AND the lack of actual damage to jobs, giving these individuals a legitimate path to residency is only going to improve things. E.g. they will be subject to minimum wage laws; they will have to pay taxes, and so forth.
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Really ??? And who would be doing these jobs if they weren't being done by illegal immigrants ?? I'll give you a hint, American citizens, legal ones.

lol

Yes, because no one can possibly be smart enough to thwart that system, e.g. by paying under the table.

By the way, in order for that to be possible, we need to accept that:
• Regulations can be beneficial
• Regulations can be effective
• Local / State / Federal governments can perform these functions effectively
• Either there won't be any mission creep, or any subsequent mission expansions will be acceptable or manageable
• We're going to need some sort of official database of actual citizens

As there is nothing special about the regulations or laws relating to hiring undocumented immigrants, I see no reason why one type of regulation can be beneficial and effective, and others cannot. Do you agree?
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Gotcha. Since it would be hard to enforce, which I don't agree with, we should ignore all laws?? Great, why don't you hire a couple dozen 10 year old kids. You could probably pay them with a candy bar at the end of the week.

sheesh.
 
apdst said:
We should annex Mexico, Americanize the whole place and add another 10, or 12 states to the union.
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Then the problem with the U.S./Mexican border will just be moved south to the Mexican/Central American border.

You'd better annex all of Central and parts of South America.
 
Gill said:
Really ??? And who would be doing these jobs if they weren't being done by illegal immigrants ?? I'll give you a hint, American citizens, legal ones.
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If you say so. Unless Americans don't want those jobs.

Why Americans Won't Do Dirty Jobs - Businessweek
North Carolina needed 6,500 farm workers. Only 7 Americans stuck it out. - The Washington Post
Jobs Americans won't do: A myth, but a close approximation to the truth.

And let's get back on point here. How much damage is actually done to the US economy by undocumented immigration? And if we provide a legal route to residency, does that problem get worse?

An estimated 8 million undocumented immigrants work in the US. Most of the jobs the undocumented immigrants take are low-paying, low-skill jobs. They send some out of the US as remittances, and the rest circulates in the US.

If we claim that "all those jobs would be filled even if the labor costs are higher," well, we should keep in mind that's a winner of an argument for raising the minimum wage, yes? If the demand for jobs is completely unaffected by wages, then by all means we should raise wages.

Contrary to popular belief, those immigrants can't actually receive government services. Their children, if born in the US, are legitimate citizens and can receive certain benefits and an education. So, that's a wash.

We should also note there are numerous other threats to American workers, many of which we do not try to thwart with legislation, and do far more harm to workers than undocumented immigrants, such as:
• Automation
• Outsourcing manufacturing
• Free trade agreements
• Increasing productivity (which means we need fewer people to produce the same output)
• Eviscerating unions

Does providing undocumented immigrants a route to legal residency increase these supposed problems? Nope. They're here, and hoping you can drive all of them away with a quick legislative fix is a fantasy. If we legitimize their presence, then we can zing them for taxes and make them work at higher wages, which of course provides an incentive to hire 'Muricans as well as undocumented immigrants. (Assuming 'Muricans want those jobs... which it seems they don't.)

Last but not least, ranting and raving is not the equivalent to actual statistical data, or even estimates, of the alleged harm. So, how bad is it really? And if it's really that awful, then why haven't we been in a state of permanent recession since 1988....?
 
Gill said:
Really ??? And who would be doing these jobs if they weren't being done by illegal immigrants ?? I'll give you a hint, American citizens, legal ones.
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It's cute that people think this.
 
Visbek said:
If you say so. Unless Americans don't want those jobs.

And let's get back on point here. How much damage is actually done to the US economy by undocumented immigration? And if we provide a legal route to residency, does that problem get worse?

An estimated 8 million undocumented immigrants work in the US. Most of the jobs the undocumented immigrants take are low-paying, low-skill jobs. They send some out of the US as remittances, and the rest circulates in the US.

If we claim that "all those jobs would be filled even if the labor costs are higher," well, we should keep in mind that's a winner of an argument for raising the minimum wage, yes? If the demand for jobs is completely unaffected by wages, then by all means we should raise wages.
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No, Americans don't want the jobs at the pay rate that illegal immigrants will accept. Most Americans won't clean hotel toilets for $8/hour. For one thing, they can make almost as much on government welfare. Why should they work when they can stay at home and watch Jerry Springer.

If there were no illegal immigrants, then the pay would have to be raised until enough people were willing to work for the wages offered. Illegal immigrants suppress pay and cost American citizens jobs.

And no, that is not a "winner" of an argument for raising the minimum wage. Wages should be based on ability of the employee, worth of the employee to the business, and supply and demand of labor.
 
Gill said:
No, Americans don't want the jobs at the pay rate that illegal immigrants will accept.
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Or, they don't want the jobs, period. Read the second article as an example.


Most Americans won't clean hotel toilets for $8/hour. For one thing, they can make almost as much on government welfare. Why should they work when they can stay at home and watch Jerry Springer.
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In case you missed it: Millions of Americans do clean toilets and do other crappy jobs for $7.25 an hour. Go figure.


If there were no illegal immigrants, then the pay would have to be raised until enough people were willing to work for the wages offered. Illegal immigrants suppress pay and cost American citizens jobs.
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Read the 2nd link. A lot of those jobs will go unfilled.


And no, that is not a "winner" of an argument for raising the minimum wage. Wages should be based on ability of the employee, worth of the employee to the business, and supply and demand of labor.
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Mmm. If that's the case, then why are you against immigrant workers at all? If wages are based on skill set, productivity, supply and demand, then why is there any problem at all with someone willing to work for lower wages? You should be saluting the immigrants' work ethic.

I.e. you're failing to understand the consequences of your own claims. You say that immigrants are underpricing the market, while your ideology says that can't happen. You suggest that wages can go up, without any change whatsoever in the demand for those jobs, even though that overtly defies the economic theories you espouse. How is this supposed to work, exactly...?
 
And again: Can you quantify the alleged harm done to the US by undocumented immigrants, or not?
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Yeah, the sky is indeed falling, isn't it?

Funny thing is, the 'amnesty' you're decrying has stricter requirements than Reagan's. That, and no president has deported as many illegal aliens as has Obama.

But I get it - he's worse than Hitler and Stalin and Mao and Vlad Tepes all combined, and he's out to destroy America because...Obama!
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He deported more as he let more in. Who do you think you're fooling?
 
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