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Thread: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them [W:182]

  1. #131
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    Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Soviets hardly and wouldn't have defeated the Germans without Britain and The U.S.
    See, I knew you'd eventually give FDR credit for something!

    Actually, you could make a case for the fact that the Nazi invasion of the USSR was won by the harsh Russian winter as much as anything. That and Hitler's hubris.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
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    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In T...

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    The post you responded to asking the question wasn't talking about the holocaust but rather taking on the Nazi scientists before the Russians got to them.
    I know, but how does any thing short of their rocket experience mean anything. There is no real way to know what they knew or didn't know about slave labor and or the extermination of jews.

  3. #133
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    Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    Yeah, why would we care about silly things like genocide and torture and obscene medical experiments on prisoners? If I'm a 'bleeding heart' because I find that stuff appalling, so be it.
    Loving your high school worldview.

    To use their research for the advancement of mankind as the Americans and Soviets did is the right way to go, even though it is surely morally questionable as you said. Life is full of hard choices.
    "We have more responsibility than power, I think. The newspaper can create great controversies, stir up arguments within the community or discussion, can throw light on injustices....just as it can do the opposite. It can hide things and be a great power for evil." -- Rupert Murdoch, 1968

  4. #134
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    Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

    Quote Originally Posted by northwinds View Post
    Exactly........
    Ah so you're saying that Hitler had a perfectly good reason to invade Poland and Czechoslovakia? Right?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  5. #135
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    Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Ah so you're saying that Hitler had a perfectly good reason to invade Poland and Czechoslovakia? Right?
    The further you dig I guarantee you the less you will like what you see (especially when you're dealing with northwinds)...
    -----MOS 19D = cavalry scout = best damn MOS there is

  6. #136
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    Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    See, I knew you'd eventually give FDR credit for something!

    Actually, you could make a case for the fact that the Nazi invasion of the USSR was won by the harsh Russian winter as much as anything. That and Hitler's hubris.
    In the big picture, the winter of 41/42 had little to with it, since the Germans were on the advance again, come springtime.

    It was the material and intel support the Soviets received that made the difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  7. #137
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    Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Decades old news.
    Yep. And you can add to the list of Presidents who helped keep them in the US - Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Carter, Bush. Not sure if there were very many still around by the time H. W. was Pres, but in his previous capacity in the CIA he probably helped.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  8. #138
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    Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In T...

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    I know, but how does any thing short of their rocket experience mean anything. There is no real way to know what they knew or didn't know about slave labor and or the extermination of jews.
    Slave labor[edit]

    SS General Hans Kammler, who as an engineer had constructed several concentration camps, including Auschwitz, had a reputation for brutality and had originated the idea of using concentration camp prisoners as slave laborers in the rocket program. Arthur Rudolph, chief engineer of the V-2 rocket factory at Peenemünde, endorsed this idea in April 1943 when a labor shortage developed. More people died building the V-2 rockets than were killed by it as a weapon.[31] Von Braun admitted visiting the plant at Mittelwerk on many occasions, and called conditions at the plant "repulsive," but claimed never to have witnessed any deaths or beatings, although it had become clear to him by 1944 that deaths had occurred.[32] He denied ever having visited the Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp itself, where 20,000 died from illness, beatings, hangings and intolerable working conditions.[33]

    In Wernher von Braun: Crusader for Space, numerous statements by von Braun show he was aware of the conditions but felt completely unable to change them. A friend quotes von Braun speaking of a visit to Mittelwerk:


    It is hellish. My spontaneous reaction was to talk to one of the SS guards, only to be told with unmistakable harshness that I should mind my own business, or find myself in the same striped fatigues!... I realized that any attempt of reasoning on humane grounds would be utterly futile.[34]

    When asked if von Braun could have protested against the brutal treatment of the slave laborers, von Braun team member Konrad Dannenberg told The Huntsville Times, "If he had done it, in my opinion, he would have been shot on the spot."[35]

    Others claim von Braun engaged in brutal treatment or approved of it. Guy Morand, a French resistance fighter who was a prisoner in Dora, testified in 1995 that after an apparent sabotage attempt that von Braun ordered a prisoner to be flogged,[36] while Robert Cazabonne, another French prisoner claimed von Braun stood by as prisoners were hanged by chains suspended by cranes.[37] However, these accounts may have been a case of mistaken identity.[38]

    Proof exists however that von Braun himself went to KZ Buchenwald to pick slave laborers (letter to Albin Sawatzki dated August 15, 1944)[citation needed]. Former inmate Adam Cabala reported: "[...] also the German scientists led by Prof. Wernher von Braun were aware of everything daily. As they went along the corridors, they saw the exhaustion of the inmates, their arduous work and their pain. Not one single time did Prof. Wernher von Braun protest against this cruelty and bestiality during his frequent stays at Dora. Even the aspect of corpses did not touch him: On a small area near the ambulance shed, inmates tortured to death by slave labor and the terror of the overseers were piling up daily. [...] But Prof. Wernher von Braun passed them so close that he was almost touching the corpses" [39]
    Wernher von Braun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  9. #139
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    Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    In the big picture, the winter of 41/42 had little to with it, since the Germans were on the advance again, come springtime.

    It was the material and intel support the Soviets received that made the difference.
    There's no denying it helped. Having Hitler engaged in the East certainly was a big help to the effort on the other side.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  10. #140
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    Re: Nazis Helped Get Us To The Moon. The Reagan White House Helped Keep Them In The U

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    The further you dig I guarantee you the less you will like what you see (especially when you're dealing with northwinds)...
    I'm trying to see where the rabbit holes and who agrees with him.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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