Page 8 of 14 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 131

Thread: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

  1. #71
    User
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    61

    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Great discussion. For me, when democracy is used to favour corporations and dictate policy, the interests of the individual are completely subordinate. I'm not an economist but the current model shows an unprecedented gap between the distribution of wealth in the U.S. A good economy works when you have a workforce, work to be carried out and the resources to do so. The U.S. Is completely dysfunctional on these terms. A 'type' of business may create a few jobs to create wealth for the company but the general masses and real needs are left out.

  2. #72
    Guru
    ashurbanipal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Private
    Posts
    4,874

    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger
    The real pity here is that some some can't come to grips with the fact that both demand and business are required for the upward economic spiral, and pretty much give in to their partisan ideology and ignore that real facts here.
    Wait a minute. The debate seems to be over which is more fundamental, and it seems pretty obvious to me that demand is more fundamental. There was demand long before there were businesses, at least as I understand those terms. There was demand before there was money, when people traded goods or labor in barter. Heck, there was demand before people traded with each other at all.

    While this does mean that businesses aren't strictly necessary, it doesn't mean that they aren't useful, nor that we'd be anything other than foolish not to make use of them. What it also means is that demand is where we have to start. It's more fundamental than whether businesses exist or not.

    Given our current economic circumstances, it's surely the case that we'd be wise to see to it that businesses continue to do well. I would point out that there's been a considerable shift in what "doing well" means for businesses over the last 70 years or so. 5% net profit used to be considered a gangbuster rate--almost unheard of. Now, investors back out when they can't make at least 20% for reasons that are ancillary to the discussion. 5% may be a little too low, but surely 8-10% is a reasonable rate and wages could be increased proportionately to the reduced profits. I don't know how much money would get poured back into the non-investment economy if, say, half of all business profits were used to increase wages, but I would imagine it's a lot of money. Back when the U.S. had a good economy, that was roughly the prevailing balance. But now we've gone out of balance, and the downward spiral is beginning.

  3. #73
    Guru
    ashurbanipal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Private
    Posts
    4,874

    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst
    There's a demand, now, someone created a product and marketted it.
    This confuses demand with demands. There are only a few very basic things that count under the first heading--food, water, medicine, clothing, entertainment, love, comfort...that's pretty much it. These all really come down to just two things: what we need to survive, and what we need in order to want to continue to survive. Perhaps more basically, what keeps us alive, and what makes us happy. NASCAR is just a specific instance of the latter.

    Before NASCAR, there was demand for things that make us want to continue to survive. NASCAR helps fit the bill for some people--they enjoy it, the enjoyment makes them happy for a while, and happiness is a reason to live. The point is that this demand existed before NASCAR; NASCAR merely filled that demand as a concrete exemplar. That seems about right to me: clearly, if NASCAR didn't do anything that has to do with making us happy or keeping us alive, no one would have anything to do with it. The fact that, for any given product, we can see what about it makes us want more, and that thing is always logically prior to the product, or demand for the product, seems like a pretty good argument for this point.

  4. #74
    Sage


    eohrnberger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:41 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    24,953
    Blog Entries
    11

    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    Wait a minute. The debate seems to be over which is more fundamental, and it seems pretty obvious to me that demand is more fundamental. There was demand long before there were businesses, at least as I understand those terms. There was demand before there was money, when people traded goods or labor in barter. Heck, there was demand before people traded with each other at all.

    While this does mean that businesses aren't strictly necessary, it doesn't mean that they aren't useful, nor that we'd be anything other than foolish not to make use of them. What it also means is that demand is where we have to start. It's more fundamental than whether businesses exist or not.
    That's true. In the past people did trade with each other. However, not much of that going on these days in modern economies, where the mechanism of trade is uses the intermediate of currency.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    Given our current economic circumstances, it's surely the case that we'd be wise to see to it that businesses continue to do well. I would point out that there's been a considerable shift in what "doing well" means for businesses over the last 70 years or so. 5% net profit used to be considered a gangbuster rate--almost unheard of. Now, investors back out when they can't make at least 20% for reasons that are ancillary to the discussion. 5% may be a little too low, but surely 8-10% is a reasonable rate and wages could be increased proportionately to the reduced profits. I don't know how much money would get poured back into the non-investment economy if, say, half of all business profits were used to increase wages, but I would imagine it's a lot of money. Back when the U.S. had a good economy, that was roughly the prevailing balance. But now we've gone out of balance, and the downward spiral is beginning.
    Not sure where you are getting your information from here. 20% investment payback sounds like the very top tier of the highest risk investments. The old adage, if you can't afford to lose, you can't afford to win, applies here. Especially when more normal businesses' profit rates are in the single digits.
    the Fix-is-in Bureau of Investigation

  5. #75
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,584

    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    Wait a minute. The debate seems to be over which is more fundamental, and it seems pretty obvious to me that demand is more fundamental. There was demand long before there were businesses, at least as I understand those terms. There was demand before there was money, when people traded goods or labor in barter. Heck, there was demand before people traded with each other at all.

    While this does mean that businesses aren't strictly necessary, it doesn't mean that they aren't useful, nor that we'd be anything other than foolish not to make use of them. What it also means is that demand is where we have to start. It's more fundamental than whether businesses exist or not.

    Given our current economic circumstances, it's surely the case that we'd be wise to see to it that businesses continue to do well. I would point out that there's been a considerable shift in what "doing well" means for businesses over the last 70 years or so. 5% net profit used to be considered a gangbuster rate--almost unheard of. Now, investors back out when they can't make at least 20% for reasons that are ancillary to the discussion. 5% may be a little too low, but surely 8-10% is a reasonable rate and wages could be increased proportionately to the reduced profits. I don't know how much money would get poured back into the non-investment economy if, say, half of all business profits were used to increase wages, but I would imagine it's a lot of money. Back when the U.S. had a good economy, that was roughly the prevailing balance. But now we've gone out of balance, and the downward spiral is beginning.
    There's no way a business could survive on 5%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  6. #76
    long standing member
    justabubba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:50 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    36,173

    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    This is sort of a re-do of Obama's (businessmen) "don't do it alone". And they don't: usually they go through banks etc for loans: sometimes - a lot of times - through government loans, they have to have people to help get them up and running etc. Hillary's point is that businesses don't create jobs - out of thin air -if that were so, there'd be a lot more jobs available every day: if the corps and the wealthy created jobs there'd be zero unemployment in this country and the great depression wouldn't have happened. She's not making an anti business stament, but more telling a great truth; that without demand and spending power business is really nowhere and I think that is very true. Try and see through partisanship to what's really going on here. Mind you - I'm not a Hillary fan by any stretch of the imagination, but reality is just that. A business cannot be created unless it has a place to go and a reason to hire people.
    yes, hillary may have been trying to re-visit the 'you didn't build that (by yourself)' discussion
    but she failed in her efforts
    she failed when she presented that businesses do not create jobs
    identify a demand and supply it. that is what businesses do. and businesses create jobs in the process. exactly the opposite of what hillary tried to explain to us
    and in the process she revealed that her feet are made of clay
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  7. #77
    Sage

    ocean515's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Southern California
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    24,705

    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    This confuses demand with demands. There are only a few very basic things that count under the first heading--food, water, medicine, clothing, entertainment, love, comfort...that's pretty much it. These all really come down to just two things: what we need to survive, and what we need in order to want to continue to survive. Perhaps more basically, what keeps us alive, and what makes us happy. NASCAR is just a specific instance of the latter.

    Before NASCAR, there was demand for things that make us want to continue to survive. NASCAR helps fit the bill for some people--they enjoy it, the enjoyment makes them happy for a while, and happiness is a reason to live. The point is that this demand existed before NASCAR; NASCAR merely filled that demand as a concrete exemplar. That seems about right to me: clearly, if NASCAR didn't do anything that has to do with making us happy or keeping us alive, no one would have anything to do with it. The fact that, for any given product, we can see what about it makes us want more, and that thing is always logically prior to the product, or demand for the product, seems like a pretty good argument for this point.
    I think the mistake is to confuse demand for happiness with what NASCAR did.

    Clearly, NASCAR, and more specifically Bill France Sr, believed he could add to the pool of things that make people happy by, in his case, putting everything on the line to see if he could accomplish that. The demand for such a venue as Daytona International Speedway did not exist. He took capital, under his personal belief that he could add to the happy pool. NASCAR is the result. The demand was created, where it didn't exist before.

    A perfect example of how demand is created, and a perfect example of how a big government liberal like Hilary Clinton will forever remain completely clueless on the concept.

  8. #78
    Sage
    jet57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    not here
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:04 PM
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    24,760

    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    yes, hillary may have been trying to re-visit the 'you didn't build that (by yourself)' discussion
    but she failed in her efforts
    she failed when she presented that businesses do not create jobs
    identify a demand and supply it. that is what businesses do. and businesses create jobs in the process. exactly the opposite of what hillary tried to explain to us
    and in the process she revealed that her feet are made of clay
    You just said it for me: no job exists unless there's a demand for it.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

  9. #79
    long standing member
    justabubba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:50 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    36,173

    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    You just said it for me: no job exists unless there's a demand for it.
    too bad hillary did not say it that way for you
    then you would not have to defend her indefensible words
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  10. #80
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Where I am now
    Last Seen
    09-11-17 @ 03:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    16,386

    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    yes, hillary may have been trying to re-visit the 'you didn't build that (by yourself)' discussion
    but she failed in her efforts
    she failed when she presented that businesses do not create jobs
    identify a demand and supply it. that is what businesses do. and businesses create jobs in the process. exactly the opposite of what hillary tried to explain to us
    and in the process she revealed that her feet are made of clay
    Well said.

    I think she was playing to the crowd, but I think she screwed up.

    The people who liked her comments are probably already going to vote for her...the big government lovers/big business haters. So she gained little there it seems.

    It is the rest of America she needs to convince, convince them that she understands the American economy. And that comment will be played over and over and it makes her sound macroeconomically ignorant.
    It does not matter what context she said it in, the comment was flat out wrong. Of course businesses create jobs. And since demand is an emotion, it cannot create jobs as emotions cannot create anything. It's ridiculous to even suggest otherwise.
    Sure, for 13 year olds and Keynesian fanatics, it's fine to say. But for POTUS candidates, it makes her look (IMO) rather silly and ignorant.

    People love quick sound bites and that comment she made will, IMO, stay with her for a long time.

    I would be quite surprised if that did not cost her more potential votes then it won her.
    Last edited by DA60; 11-01-14 at 11:24 AM.

Page 8 of 14 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •