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Thread: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    But there was a demand--namely, for unfussy travel. Compared to a horse and carriage, motor vehicles were a bit more reliable and cheaper to operate.

    This isn't to say, of course, that automobiles didn't create further demands, which, I've argued above, can be distinguished from demand. However, without the initial demand, automobiles wouldn't have gone anywhere (meant, in this case, both figuratively and literally). Or, more perspicaciously, without a demand that people had the ability to pay to fill, automobiles would never have caught on. So the demand, and the ability for those with the demand to fill it, have to be present.

    Our main problem is that Americans aren't filling as many demands because they lack the means. This is how vicious cycles get started (well, one of a couple of ways). To fix it, we need to take actions that directly affect how much wealth customers have to spend.
    There was no demand for cars. In fact, cities and towns banned the use of them in the beginning.

    It wasn't until the benefits they represented began to create demand that these early laws began to change. The automobile, along with a long list of technological advances, are perfect examples of demand, and by extension jobs, being created through business investment at risk, searching for a reasonable return in profits.

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    No, it does not.



    People didn't like to enjoy things prior to NASCAR? That just sounds silly.



    Yes, but WHY did they enjoy them? Why were race cars something that it could be predicted people would enjoy? Answer those questions without conceding the point, if you can. If you can't, then it seems to me the point should be conceded anyway.



    There was no demand to cook food quickly? There was no demand to talk to friends and family when they weren't at home or work? If you answer in the affirmative, I say that's just nuts. Of course there were such demands.

    What you're doing is confusing the demand for the product that fills it. If your claim is that the invention of a product creates the demand for it, we only need look at products which sold well, but which have been superseded by others that fill the same function. For example, casette tapes sold well until CDs came along. You can't say there was no demand for casette tapes and remain consistent with your view. But then, if the demand was for cassette tapes, why aren't sales of cassette tapes still going strong?

    The reason is pretty obvious: the real demand is for hi-fidelity portable recording media. And that, in turn, is just a modulation of a more basic demand for things that make life enjoyable.
    To simplify the reply, I'll just respond to one statement you made.

    People didn't like to enjoy things prior to NASCAR? That just sounds silly.

    What an absurd statement. That is not even in the realm of what I posted. By reaching into the ridiculous bag for a reply, it's obvious any further effort is pointless.

    Thank you for the exchange.

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    But there was a demand--namely, for unfussy travel. Compared to a horse and carriage, motor vehicles were a bit more reliable and cheaper to operate.

    This isn't to say, of course, that automobiles didn't create further demands, which, I've argued above, can be distinguished from demand. However, without the initial demand, automobiles wouldn't have gone anywhere (meant, in this case, both figuratively and literally). Or, more perspicaciously, without a demand that people had the ability to pay to fill, automobiles would never have caught on. So the demand, and the ability for those with the demand to fill it, have to be present.

    Our main problem is that Americans aren't filling as many demands because they lack the means. This is how vicious cycles get started (well, one of a couple of ways). To fix it, we need to take actions that directly affect how much wealth customers have to spend.
    There can't be a demand for a product that doesn't exist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by Summerwind View Post
    And if you actually consider that past a talking point, she's absolutely right. Demand by consumers (whether they be other businesses or individuals or MIC) create the need for more product or service and then the business fills that need with more employees. DEMAND by CONSUMERS creates jobs, and not a damned thing else.
    Wow, talk about something out of context, that sure is. That's like saying a woman giving birth creates jobs. Well, I guess somewhere down the road it leads to more demand.

    Demand doesn't create jobs, it's just a piece of the puzzle. It stays demand until someone decides that they are going to fill that need and come up with a product or service that is in demand. I forgot the part where government comes in and saves the day. Oh, wait, forget it.
    "We have met the enemy and they are ours..." -- Oliver Hazard Perry
    "I don't want a piece of you... I want the whole thing!" -- Bob Barker

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515
    There was no demand for cars.
    I never said there was. Indeed, I've been at some pains to explain that there aren't demands for specific products just as such. There is demand for the product which best fills a need--but notice that that phrase is entirely general. The demand isn't for some specific product, it's for whatever does the trick. And so the creation of some specific thing cannot be what creates demand.

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515
    In fact, cities and towns banned the use of them in the beginning.
    Yes. This seems like a point in my favor. See below.

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515
    It wasn't until the benefits they represented began to create demand that these early laws began to change.
    Wait a minute: the benefits they represented? I thought it was just automobiles that generated demand for them, in your view. The benefits of which you speak are abstract and accrue to any specific product that does the same thing, or that fills the same needs better, or more needs at an instant.

    Businesses don't create benefits. They create products which confer benefits. But what are benefits without demands? A benefit is something that fills a need. Without the need--i.e. the demand--there can be no benefit.


    The automobile, along with a long list of technological advances, are perfect examples of demand, and by extension jobs, being created through business investment at risk, searching for a reasonable return in profits.

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515
    Ash: People didn't like to enjoy things prior to NASCAR? That just sounds silly.

    Ocean: What an absurd statement. That is not even in the realm of what I posted. By reaching into the ridiculous bag for a reply, it's obvious any further effort is pointless.
    What's so ridiculous about it, exactly? That's the need that entertainment of any kind meets--i.e. the demand it fills. People want to enjoy life, and entertainments are invented to help us do that. Without that need, and without the ability for people to pay for entertainments, there wouldn't be NASCAR, football, chess, video games, theater, music, or other such.

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisshort View Post
    If you have no job and no money you demand nothing. If you have a job created by business you have money and you demand goods and services your attempt to put the cart ahead of the horse is nuts
    This is a chicken/egg... though I agree that businesses take the first step.

    ... of course, if the business has no demand for its product/service, it has nothing.... and you have no job. Businesses create jobs in anticipation of a demand (or increasing) demand for a product or service. If their bet is correct, then a real job exists. If their bet is incorrect, that job will be very short lived.

    Demand for a product/service depends on a market; which depends on income; which depends on the buyer having a job. Of course, the more that buyer has a good job, the more likely their is demand for product/service.

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst
    There can't be a demand for a product that doesn't exist.
    As I have been at pains to explain, there isn't demand for any product. There are demands for products, but only in virtue of the demand they fill. That is, the demand is only for something general--some device or service which fills a particular need.

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    As I have been at pains to explain, there isn't demand for any product. There are demands for products, but only in virtue of the demand they fill.
    Spin it how you want, but it's not 100% about demand. Sometimes, someone creates a product and sells it. Was there a demand for chia pets?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    I never said there was. Indeed, I've been at some pains to explain that there aren't demands for specific products just as such. There is demand for the product which best fills a need--but notice that that phrase is entirely general. The demand isn't for some specific product, it's for whatever does the trick. And so the creation of some specific thing cannot be what creates demand.



    Yes. This seems like a point in my favor. See below.



    Wait a minute: the benefits they represented? I thought it was just automobiles that generated demand for them, in your view. The benefits of which you speak are abstract and accrue to any specific product that does the same thing, or that fills the same needs better, or more needs at an instant.

    Businesses don't create benefits. They create products which confer benefits. But what are benefits without demands? A benefit is something that fills a need. Without the need--i.e. the demand--there can be no benefit.


    The automobile, along with a long list of technological advances, are perfect examples of demand, and by extension jobs, being created through business investment at risk, searching for a reasonable return in profits.
    As evidenced in my previous post, it's obvious your opinion on the issue is such that you will invent whatever view that is necessary to support your position and the larger agenda behind the demand meme. You're all over the place with your statements as you attempt to support your understanding of demand and how it is created, and have gone as far as to counter your own points as you go.

    Again, that approach makes any further exchange on my part an exercise in futility.

    Thanks again for the exchange.

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