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Thread: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    But they are not co-dependent in an important and relevant sense: demand can never be reduced to zero (unless all human beings are dead), while supply can be. Demand is therefore more fundamental--the thing that needs to be around first is demand and the ability to satisfy demands. I don't know how to be any more plain.



    I didn't say that. But investors wouldn't have anything to risk in the first place if it weren't for them being in a society. And to the extent that all businesses invoke social costs, society is taking a risk any time a business opens.



    If that's meant as a rhetorical question, as it seems to be, you may as well be arguing my case. The obvious answer is: anyone who is reasonable.



    For reasons I've explained earlier. There's a perception that better returns for less risk can be had elsewhere. The "less risk" bit is right--there's not enough demand to provide a reasonable guarantee against business closure. The "better return" bit is also right, but needs to be remedied.
    It isn't absolutely necessary that demand exist. Sometimes there is no demand, until a product is produced. The automobile is a perfect example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    But they are not co-dependent in an important and relevant sense: demand can never be reduced to zero (unless all human beings are dead), while supply can be. Demand is therefore more fundamental--the thing that needs to be around first is demand and the ability to satisfy demands. I don't know how to be any more plain.
    Demand can be 0, and it wouldn't require all the humans being dead either. They'd just not have to demand (or want to pay for) anything.

    A system where everyone was 100% self-sufficient, would have no demand, for example. As would a system where everything that everyone could possibly want is given to them, that'd also have no demand.

    Frankly, it's an extreme boundary case that probably can't exist in reality.

    Just demand isn't going to make any jobs. It'll be just unfulfilled demand. Until someone decides to fill that demand, is there going to be a job. It may be one person, or it may be many people, but in both cases its a job. The mere fact that demand is getting fulfilled by someone else creates a job.

    The two are so intertwined, it doesn't seem to make any sense to me to consider them separate. Sure, in some theoretical sense, but not in anything that is remotely connected to any sort of reality known to man.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    I didn't say that. But investors wouldn't have anything to risk in the first place if it weren't for them being in a society. And to the extent that all businesses invoke social costs, society is taking a risk any time a business opens.



    If that's meant as a rhetorical question, as it seems to be, you may as well be arguing my case. The obvious answer is: anyone who is reasonable.



    For reasons I've explained earlier. There's a perception that better returns for less risk can be had elsewhere. The "less risk" bit is right--there's not enough demand to provide a reasonable guarantee against business closure. The "better return" bit is also right, but needs to be remedied.
    Disinformation campaign? The Russian collusion meme pushed by the 'news' media, behaving as a political propaganda organ, hell bent to destroy a legitimately elected president to implement his agenda per the votes of the same electorate. Reference The Big Lie Reference Goebbels

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    But they are not co-dependent in an important and relevant sense: demand can never be reduced to zero (unless all human beings are dead), while supply can be. Demand is therefore more fundamental--the thing that needs to be around first is demand and the ability to satisfy demands. I don't know how to be any more plain.



    I didn't say that. But investors wouldn't have anything to risk in the first place if it weren't for them being in a society. And to the extent that all businesses invoke social costs, society is taking a risk any time a business opens.



    If that's meant as a rhetorical question, as it seems to be, you may as well be arguing my case. The obvious answer is: anyone who is reasonable.



    For reasons I've explained earlier. There's a perception that better returns for less risk can be had elsewhere. The "less risk" bit is right--there's not enough demand to provide a reasonable guarantee against business closure. The "better return" bit is also right, but needs to be remedied.
    It seems like you want to ask the question which came first, the chicken or the egg? Business or demand? A fine esoteric debate but in the real world and in the here and now business creates jobs and then jobs create demand which then create more business and the cycle continues to spiral up. Ever notice how supply comes first in supply and demand?

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    it appears you cannot meet the challenge and show us her statement where she said government is responsible for creating jobs ... allowing us to then conclude that YOUR statement was incorrect
    If not business then who? The only other choice is gov isn't it?

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisshort View Post
    If not business then who? The only other choice is gov isn't it?
    It's like pulling hen's teeth, bro...lol!
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    This doesn't address my point at all. Why was there a demand after NASCAR got started? The only reason there could be is that it filled a more basic need--i.e. a demand--that already existed. Ergo, demand, and the ability to satisfy demand, is more fundamental than supply.
    Of course it addresses your point. It addresses it quite precisely. There was no large scale demand until that demand was created by investors putting capital at risk in the hope it would pay off. Did people like race cars? They seemed to. Crowds were attending the Daytona Beach races. Would they flock to a banked track to watch cars race at speeds never seen before? They didn't know. The first race required a mix of cars from different classes when many drivers decided the track was unsafe. This is a classic case of supply at risk searching for demand. Same thing happened with many of the technological breakthroughs we take for granted today. From Microwave ovens to cell phones. All risk against no demand.

    I understand the demand meme that forms the foundation for the living wage agenda requires reality to be suspended, but that doesn't change the facts.

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst
    It isn't absolutely necessary that demand exist. Sometimes there is no demand, until a product is produced. The automobile is a perfect example.
    But there was a demand--namely, for unfussy travel. Compared to a horse and carriage, motor vehicles were a bit more reliable and cheaper to operate.

    This isn't to say, of course, that automobiles didn't create further demands, which, I've argued above, can be distinguished from demand. However, without the initial demand, automobiles wouldn't have gone anywhere (meant, in this case, both figuratively and literally). Or, more perspicaciously, without a demand that people had the ability to pay to fill, automobiles would never have caught on. So the demand, and the ability for those with the demand to fill it, have to be present.

    Our main problem is that Americans aren't filling as many demands because they lack the means. This is how vicious cycles get started (well, one of a couple of ways). To fix it, we need to take actions that directly affect how much wealth customers have to spend.

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger
    Demand can be 0, and it wouldn't require all the humans being dead either. They'd just not have to demand (or want to pay for) anything.
    Well, it's logically possible that people could exist and want absolutely nothing. So in that sense, of course, you're correct. However, it seems to be the nature of human beings to want some things. A person whose belly is full of food today will be hungry tomorrow. A person who is healthy today will be ill and require medicine tomorrow. A person who needs no shelter because it's a nice temperate day will one day be in blazing heat, pouring rain, or freezing cold. And so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger
    A system where everyone was 100% self-sufficient, would have no demand, for example.
    No, there would still be demands. Everyone would just be satisfying their own demand.

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger
    Just demand isn't going to make any jobs. It'll be just unfulfilled demand. Until someone decides to fill that demand, is there going to be a job.
    Then ask yourself this: would any business (that actually stays in business for very long) create a job to fill a demand which wasn't there? Would any business (that actually stays in business for very long) create a job to fill a demand for which people couldn't possibly pay enough to create profit? And what happens to businesses that flout those rules?

    Again, I get that (at least in our economic model) business is what goes about filling the demand. And this isn't all. Businesses are what "spin up" demands (plural) from subsistence level economies to industrial and post-industrial economies such as the one we enjoy.
    So long as we have such a thing as private ownership (not something with which I want to do away), we'd be foolish to not allow business to thrive. But in fact, one principle effect of taking my point seriously is that businesses should begin to thrive more, because they'll have more customers with more money to spend.

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger
    The two are so intertwined, it doesn't seem to make any sense to me to consider them separate. Sure, in some theoretical sense, but not in anything that is remotely connected to any sort of reality known to man.
    I think at least some of what I've said is in rough agreement with this notion. However, sometimes theory is rather important. Theories that are tolerably accurate can tell us what to do when something goes wrong. And that's the kind of point I'm making. We shouldn't be so confused about what has gone wrong in our economy. We need to take direct steps to help there be more customers with the ability to pay for their demands. Do that, and we'll get back in a virtuous cycle. Do it not, and we'll keep swirling around the rim of another vicious cycle.

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisshort
    It seems like you want to ask the question which came first, the chicken or the egg? Business or demand? A fine esoteric debate but
    No, my point is more subtle but also entirely practical. Businesses without customers are dead, and customers are people with demands and the ability to pay for them. If we want a virtuous economic cycle, then we need policies that encourage people to have demands, and that protect their ability to pay for them. We've done ****-poor on this last bit for well-nigh 50 years, and now we're seeing the results.

    The same pattern has played out again and again throughout history. When too much wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few, one of two things happens: immediate collapse, or protracted tyranny protected by force, and then collapse. The solution is simple: rebalance wealth, and then keep it in balance.

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    Re: Hillary: 'Don't Let Anybody Tell You' That 'Businesses Create Jobs'

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515
    Of course it addresses your point. It addresses it quite precisely.
    No, it does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515
    There was no large scale demand until that demand was created by investors putting capital at risk in the hope it would pay off.
    People didn't like to enjoy things prior to NASCAR? That just sounds silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515
    Did people like race cars? They seemed to.
    Yes, but WHY did they enjoy them? Why were race cars something that it could be predicted people would enjoy? Answer those questions without conceding the point, if you can. If you can't, then it seems to me the point should be conceded anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515
    Same thing happened with many of the technological breakthroughs we take for granted today. From Microwave ovens to cell phones. All risk against no demand.
    There was no demand to cook food quickly? There was no demand to talk to friends and family when they weren't at home or work? If you answer in the affirmative, I say that's just nuts. Of course there were such demands.

    What you're doing is confusing the demand for the product that fills it. If your claim is that the invention of a product creates the demand for it, we only need look at products which sold well, but which have been superseded by others that fill the same function. For example, casette tapes sold well until CDs came along. You can't say there was no demand for casette tapes and remain consistent with your view. But then, if the demand was for cassette tapes, why aren't sales of cassette tapes still going strong?

    The reason is pretty obvious: the real demand is for hi-fidelity portable recording media. And that, in turn, is just a modulation of a more basic demand for things that make life enjoyable.

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