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US ordered to explain withholding of Iraq and Afghanistan torture photos

TheDemSocialist

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The Obama administration has until early December to detail its reasons for withholding as many as 2,100 graphic photographs depicting US military torture of detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan, a federal judge ordered on Tuesday.By 12 December, Justice Department attorneys will have to list, photograph by photograph, the government’s rationale for keeping redacted versions of the photos unseen by the public, Judge Alvin Hellerstein instructed lawyers. But any actual release of the photographs will come after Hellerstein reviews the government’s reasoning and issues another ruling in the protracted transparency case.
While Hellerstein left unclear how much of the Justice Department’s declaration will itself be public, the government’s submission is likely to be its most detailed argument for secrecy over the imagery in a case that has lasted a decade.
“The only thing that bothers me is that we’re taking a lot of time,” Hellerstein told a nearly empty courtroom.
At issue is the publication of as many as 2,100 photographs of detainee abuse, although the government continues not to confirm the precise number. Said to be even more disturbing than the infamous Abu Ghraib photographs that sparked a global furor in 2004, the imagery is the subject of a transparency lawsuit that both the Bush and Obama administrations, backed by the US Congress, have strenuously resisted


Read more @: US ordered to explain withholding of Iraq and Afghanistan torture photos

More evidence of systematic torture during our occupation in Iraq, and War in Afghanistan. We need to expose all of it, put on trial the perpetrators, and analyze why it happened and how we can stop it.



 
Read more @: US ordered to explain withholding of Iraq and Afghanistan torture photos

More evidence of systematic torture during our occupation in Iraq, and War in Afghanistan. We need to expose all of it, put on trial the perpetrators, and analyze why it happened and how we can stop it.
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If there was systematic torture by government personell it certainly needs to be cleared up and published. What I have seen so far has not given me cause to believe there was more than very few incidence for which the term is appropriate. But there are people that want to make out there was systematic torture by the government and so it is good the more evidence is published.
 
If there was systematic torture by government personell it certainly needs to be cleared up and published. What I have seen so far has not given me cause to believe there was more than very few incidence for which the term is appropriate. But there are people that want to make out there was systematic torture by the government and so it is good the more evidence is published.

With 2,100 photos, there must be quite a few taken at each of those few incidents.
 
With 2,100 photos, there must be quite a few taken at each of those few incidents.

That would be typical. I did a few torture investigations of the Iraqi's we were working with, and it would be common for (for example) me to send up somewhere between 8-12 photos with each piece of paperwork. You gotta show original discovery, individual injuries, whole of individual, receipt of medical care, etc.

The President (on this one) is correct.



What I find interesting is (given that we are already airing the investigations) why there is the need for "the pictures" of what they are already openly putting out there occurring.



My bet is that folks who are pursuing the pictures hope that it will have the same effect that the video of that idiot football player knocking his wife out did - put a story that we already had in a more emotional context causing folks to change their minds. Picture v a thousand words and what that. The problem with that is that many of those people will change their minds and decide to engage in violence because of it.
 
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Why take pictures in the first place? They will only incriminate no matter the content.
 
Jack-Bauer-badass.jpg


I don't need no stinkin photos!
 
That would be typical. I did a few torture investigations of the Iraqi's we were working with, and it would be common for (for example) me to send up somewhere between 8-12 photos with each piece of paperwork. You gotta show original discovery, individual injuries, whole of individual, receipt of medical care, etc.

Wow. Imagine that. Right here on our little forum we have a guy who has actually done Iraqi torture investigations.

I'm not going to argue with the expert.

Nope, not me.
 
Why take pictures in the first place? They will only incriminate no matter the content.

It is a required part of any investigation into an allegation of abuse.
 
Wow. Imagine that. Right here on our little forum we have a guy who has actually done Iraqi torture investigations.

I'm not going to argue with the expert.

Nope, not me.

:shrug: i'm not an expert. I was just the dude who was responsible for detainee handling at the tactical level, and so the guy with the camera and the experience doing the packets. Hence, when we found the Iraqi's torturing someone, I was the guy who went and did the paperwork on it.
 
It is a required part of any investigation into an allegation of abuse.

After the fact? OK then why the transparency?

It's been know for some time that if the enemy knows they will be surveyed/inquired/ tortured (and how) they will find means to overcome it.
 
After the fact? OK then why the transparency?

Why should we publicize the pictures? We shouldn't. These images should remain classified not least because of the IO advantage it could offer the enemy.

It's been know for some time that if the enemy knows they will be surveyed/inquired/ tortured (and how) they will find means to overcome it.

:shrug: sort of. They go through resistance training, the same as we do. However, the rules of their faith (and, this is interesting) only require them to hold out as long as they can, and then they can give us whatever they want guilt-Free. That's why KSM told us we should waterboard every member of al-Qaeda we could get; it allowed him to cooperate with us and end hostile interrogation in favor of collaborative interaction.
 
With 2,100 photos, there must be quite a few taken at each of those few incidents.

Not really. That is only one of a number of possibilities. That you chose the alternative you did makes me suspect you have a certain prejudice?
 
Why should we publicize the pictures? We shouldn't. These images should remain classified not least because of the IO advantage it could offer the enemy.



:shrug: sort of. They go through resistance training, the same as we do. However, the rules of their faith (and, this is interesting) only require them to hold out as long as they can, and then they can give us whatever they want guilt-Free. That's why KSM told us we should waterboard every member of al-Qaeda we could get; it allowed him to cooperate with us and end hostile interrogation in favor of collaborative interaction.

But then again, lying to infidels is also allowed.

Guess I don't have a lot of patience or sympathy for some of these people.
 
Not really. That is only one of a number of possibilities. That you chose the alternative you did makes me suspect you have a certain prejudice?

According to the judge in the article, they are not all actually problematic.
 
But then again, lying to infidels is also allowed.

True. And difficult to do to a trained interrogator over time.

Guess I don't have a lot of patience or sympathy for some of these people.

Nope. If you help kill innocents on purpose, I'm not terribly upset if you get knocked around.
 
That would be typical. I did a few torture investigations of the Iraqi's we were working with, and it would be common for (for example) me to send up somewhere between 8-12 photos with each piece of paperwork. You gotta show original discovery, individual injuries, whole of individual, receipt of medical care, etc.

The President (on this one) is correct.

What I find interesting is (given that we are already airing the investigations) why there is the need for "the pictures" of what they are already openly putting out there occurring.

My bet is that folks who are pursuing the pictures hope that it will have the same effect that the video of that idiot football player knocking his wife out did - put a story that we already had in a more emotional context causing folks to change their minds. Picture v a thousand words and what that. The problem with that is that many of those people will change their minds and decide to engage in violence because of it.

The pictures could be helpful, if the documented a before and afterwards showing someone lost an eye or limb by the CIA agents. But if they are like the English photos the will show that there was no torture but revolting misconduct.
 
...These images should remain classified not least because of the IO advantage it could offer the enemy....

I don't know what you mean by IO, but I assume you mean "we can't let the truth come out because we will look bad." Am I wrong?
 
I don't know what you mean by IO, but I assume you mean "we can't let the truth come out because we will look bad." Am I wrong?

Information Operations. More like "we don't want to enable terrorists in killing people"
 
"We can't let the truth come out because we will look worse than them."
 
"We can't let the truth come out because we will look worse than them."

I am sure the scene, where the CIA operative takes the girl's finger off with a pen knife will make him look evil.
 
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