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Thread: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants, Sa

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    Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

    Quote Originally Posted by Jango View Post
    I was not referring to armed males. I was referring to those whom happen to be in the vicinity of those whom we were targeting.
    You have to be in a pretty tight vicinity. I've seen a hellfire hit the back end of a car and the guy in the front seat gets out and takes off running.

    I believe that most of our major newspapers have covered stories like that: peeps being in the wrong place at the wrong time and being accepted as targets when they're not a la Gaza/Hamas predicament.
    Sure, it can absolutely happen. If you hang around with terrorist leaders, well, it means you're associated with terrorist leaders, and your risk goes up.

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    Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Oh. You mean the kind that does actual analysis and stuff like that? Sorry, didn't realize I was supposed to be substituting hyperbole for reason.

    Speaking of which....



    sure.

    Now think about it from the perspective that it actually occurs in: A terrorist leader and his two body guards get blown up while driving from one training camp to another training camp. Locals shake their fists, and that is that.
    NYTimes, LATimes, Washington Post, CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC etc are hyperbole nowadays?

    It is not always "a terrorist leader and his bodyguards" that get zapped, and you know it, at least, you should by now.

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    Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You have to be in a pretty tight vicinity. I've seen a hellfire hit the back end of a car and the guy in the front seat gets out and takes off running.



    Sure, it can absolutely happen. If you hang around with terrorist leaders, well, it means you're associated with terrorist leaders, and your risk goes up.
    Not necessarily. Was everyone who lived around the Mafia in large U.S. cities associated with the mob? No, of course not. It was just where they happened to live.

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    Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The Laws of Armed Conflict.



    the available literature suggests that the "bomb one terrorist, create more terrorists" mantra does not actually show up once you do the math. Nor do we utilize drones in a willy, nilly, or indiscriminate manner as you suggest. Quite the opposite, in fact. And the numbers also tell us that more children suffer from any other targeting method available. The options? They all result in greater civilian casualties.
    Its still cowardly. Killing while sitting in the a/c sipping a latte.

    Send snipers. Skin in the game instead of just treasure. Much less collateral damage. Put fear in the hearts of the bad guys instead of kids.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    But giving them the opportunity to show their buddies that the US is bombing women and children isn't helping them spread their propaganda?
    Not if they're dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

    Quote Originally Posted by Jango View Post
    University of Nebraska Omaha Afghanistan Studies.
    And?

    ...........
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

    Quote Originally Posted by Jango View Post
    NYTimes, LATimes, Washington Post, CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC etc are hyperbole nowadays?
    No - your descriptions are. You are attempting to make an emotion-based case built on hyperbole. The media you are listing all carry things like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by The New York Times
    ...most critics of the Obama administration’s aggressive use of drones for targeted killing have focused on evidence that they are unintentionally killing innocent civilians. From the desolate tribal regions of Pakistan have come heartbreaking tales of families wiped out by mistake and of children as collateral damage in the campaign against Al Qaeda. And there are serious questions about whether American officials have understated civilian deaths.

    So it may be a surprise to find that some moral philosophers, political scientists and weapons specialists believe armed, unmanned aircraft offer marked moral advantages over almost any other tool of warfare.

    “I had ethical doubts and concerns when I started looking into this,” said Bradley J. Strawser, a former Air Force officer and an assistant professor of philosophy at the Naval Postgraduate School. But after a concentrated study of remotely piloted vehicles, he said, he concluded that using them to go after terrorists not only was ethically permissible but also might be ethically obligatory, because of their advantages in identifying targets and striking with precision.

    “You have to start by asking, as for any military action, is the cause just?” Mr. Strawser said. But for extremists who are indeed plotting violence against innocents, he said, “all the evidence we have so far suggests that drones do better at both identifying the terrorist and avoiding collateral damage than anything else we have.”

    Since drone operators can view a target for hours or days in advance of a strike, they can identify terrorists more accurately than ground troops or conventional pilots. They are able to time a strike when innocents are not nearby and can even divert a missile after firing if, say, a child wanders into range....

    Moreover, any analysis of actual results from the Central Intelligence Agency’s strikes in Pakistan, which has become the world’s unwilling test ground for the new weapon, is hampered by secrecy and wildly varying casualty reports. But one rough comparison has found that even if the highest estimates of collateral deaths are accurate, the drones kill fewer civilians than other modes of warfare.

    AVERY PLAW, a political scientist at the University of Massachusetts, put the C.I.A. drone record in Pakistan up against the ratio of combatant deaths to civilian deaths in other settings. Mr. Plaw considered four studies of drone deaths in Pakistan that estimated the proportion of civilian victims at 4 percent, 6 percent, 17 percent and 20 percent respectively.

    But even the high-end count of 20 percent was considerably lower than the rate in other settings, he found. When the Pakistani Army went after militants in the tribal area on the ground, civilians were 46 percent of those killed. In Israel’s targeted killings of militants from Hamas and other groups, using a range of weapons from bombs to missile strikes, the collateral death rate was 41 percent, according to an Israeli human rights group.....
    So....

    It is not always "a terrorist leader and his bodyguards" that get zapped, and you know it, at least, you should by now.
    Oh. Do tell me about all the times you have sat inside a Joint Targeting Working Group and run the nominations for non-combatant targets to be engaged.

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    Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Its still cowardly. Killing while sitting in the a/c sipping a latte.

    Send snipers.
    Oh the irony

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    Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

    Quote Originally Posted by Jango View Post
    Not necessarily. Was everyone who lived around the Mafia in large U.S. cities associated with the mob? No, of course not. It was just where they happened to live.
    everyone who "lives around" these guys aren't going to get killed. Again, the CER of a mitigated Hellfire isn't that expansive. If you are a military age male who travels armed and drives with them everywhere they go, however? Yup, you might get schwacked.

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    Re: Only 12% of People Killed in US Drone Strikes in Pakistan Identified as Militants

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Oh the irony
    Gilley suits have a/c now? MREs have lattes? Sniper rifles are now accurate from complete safety?

    Small teams are cool too.

    We don't fight our enemies.

    We murder them.

    There is no honor in it.

    I'm not saying our troops are dishonorable.

    The way we wage "war" is.

    I have no problem with assassination. I just have issues with doing it from the safety of home. It distances us from our actions. Turns people into videogame enemies.

    And I don't think snipers kill 7 noncombatants for every bad guy they cap either.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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