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Atheist inmate settles for $1.95 million over 12-step drug rehab

while I agree that his freedom of not being religious were violated by jailing him further for not joining a religiously based 12 step program. But the money that is now given to him is ridiculous. Unless he was almost murdered or seriously hurt in those extra 100 days of jail, there is no need for such an excessive monetary reward for this person. I personally would think that a financial compensation of between 10 and 20 thousand would have been more than enough.

Part of me says "screw this asshole for trying to suck the government dry, it's his damn fault that he's in jail to begin with."

The other part of me says "this **** needs to stop, we don't live in the Midieval Ages where you believe in God or get punished."

At the end of the day he shouldn't get **** because he shouldn't be selling drugs like the inferior human he is.
 
That's BS. AA teaches you that you are powerless to your addiction and that you need the help of others (God). Instead they should teach you that you are in control of your own destiny, that you have complete control over your own actions and that in order to overcome your addictions you need to embrace your strengths.

AA is such a joke and so is the whole idea that you are powerless.

You obviously don't understand real addiction or the power of God.

The point is, there is something inside of you (God or whatever you want to call it) that is more powerful than anything that tries to destroy you.
 
If you don't believe in God, you can't do that. The state shouldn't be able to force atheist's to participate in this program.

Then don't think of it as God. Think of it as the 'power of the universe', "the force within you", "the matrix" whatever..but you need to be able to channel it in order to overcome.
 
... At no point did he say that science can't do it. He said science surely has better treatment methods than AA. As someone who has tried AAA, AA, psychological counseling and medical treatment, I'd said that a one size fits all program simply doesn't work. Different minds need different approaches. I've met people who had no need for the religious part of AA, and yet went anyways because they enjoyed the communal aspect of it. Likewise, there are people like myself where counseling (psychological and religious) simply isn't enough and the mind needs to be occupied with other things (in my case, exercise and work). There are a third group of people who need scientific advances like methadone in conjunction with religious counseling. Overcoming addiction isn't a "let's try this and see if it works", it's a whole bunch of treatments put together to fit the individual in question.

So yes, he's right in so much as saying that people shouldn't only rely on non-scientific treatments. AAA is useless to a heroin/meth addict. Scientific treatments alone are useless for someone who drinks because of depression. In the end, it boils down to an inexact science of finding out what a person best responds to and how to benefit them using other treatments that are available.

In the end, it boils down to YOU.
 
I also think the higher power notion of 12 steps is nonsense. There is no higher power, there is only you and you alone can change this behavior. You can admit you have lost control and have to regain that control, not think of it as a higher power but a vice that needs reigning in.

There's a constant battle of good and evil, right and wrong, positive and negative going on inside every one of us. Call it what you want but, you better hope the good, right, positive power wins out.
 
Part of me says "screw this asshole for trying to suck the government dry, it's his damn fault that he's in jail to begin with."

The other part of me says "this **** needs to stop, we don't live in the Midieval Ages where you believe in God or get punished."

At the end of the day he shouldn't get **** because he shouldn't be selling drugs like the inferior human he is.

FWIW he was getting punished well before any treatments or programs.
 
You obviously don't understand real addiction or the power of God.

The point is, there is something inside of you (God or whatever you want to call it) that is more powerful than anything that tries to destroy you.

Your conscience, your moral compass, your inner voice.

I wouldn't conflate that with the concept of God however, because I believe that is all me. It is MY inner voice, conscience, and moral compass, not God's.
 
FWIW he was getting punished well before any treatments or programs.


Basically, he's an inferior subhuman and he's getting what inferior subhumans deserve.
 
Basically, he's an inferior subhuman and he's getting what inferior subhumans deserve.

And getting paid for it. I think we've reach a turning point for this country's relationship with God or ------ your choice of higher powers.
 
Your conscience, your moral compass, your inner voice.

I wouldn't conflate that with the concept of God however, because I believe that is all me. It is MY inner voice, conscience, and moral compass, not God's.

IMO God is in each of us but, gives us free will to do as we please. Therein lies the problem of addiction and such.
God will help if we ask.
 
First off its not lengthening prison sentences, parole is a shortened sentence.
A side point but it's a common error worth pointing out.

Parole doesn't shorten a sentence. If someone gets a sentence of 12 years and is released on parole after 5 years in prison, he remains on parole for 7 years. That is still part of the sentence, which is why someone on parole can be recalled to prison if the break the conditions of their parole even if that falls short of being a criminal act in itself.
 
A side point but it's a common error worth pointing out.

Parole doesn't shorten a sentence. If someone gets a sentence of 12 years and is released on parole after 5 years in prison, he remains on parole for 7 years. That is still part of the sentence, which is why someone on parole can be recalled to prison if the break the conditions of their parole even if that falls short of being a criminal act in itself.

Yes there are provisions but it does shorten their time in jail. While technically it doesnt reduce their sentence in reality they are in jail less than if they served the full sentence even if it is only a day.
 
Yes there are provisions but it does shorten their time in jail. While technically it doesnt reduce their sentence in reality they are in jail less than if they served the full sentence even if it is only a day.
For the vast majority of prison sentences, the expectation is that the prisoner will be paroled at some point. If someone is given a "12 year custodial sentence with the possibility of parole after 5 years", the judge is expecting that prisoner will likely be released after 5 years. Very few convicted criminals will spend their entire sentence in prison. I doubt there is anything like the prison capacity for that to happen (which in itself should say something).

There is a valid question whether this should be the case but it is. I personally think there is an argument for change, if only to the way sentencing is presented and reported, to avoid exactly this kind of confusion. The problem is that we'd all have to get used to sentences suddenly sounding much shorter without the political opportunism and headless-chicken panic I fear would be inevitable.
 
yes to quote Hamilton he was “an atheist in religion and a fanatic in politics"

I believe that was part of what we'd call today an "attack ad," and given equivalent respect for its historical accuracy.
 
When you've lost your soul to addiction, who better to return it to you than God? Like you said, science can't do it.

Gods can at best offer a placebo effect. Since they're not real, they can't do anything substantial.
 
Gods can at best offer a placebo effect. Since they're not real, they can't do anything substantial.

But the placebos of all kinds often have 'substantial' effects.

I was going to mention this earlier, but I accept the evidence that addiction is in part caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain and that a necessary step to long term recovery is fixing that imbalance so people feel more or less 'normal' when not using drugs. Time fixes some of these problems, but many unfortunate individuals deal with intense cravings years into recovery.

I followed a program to chemically 'fix' the imbalances and it worked beautifully for me. I mentioned this to my doctor and he (and others) suggested that my 'cure' was effective merely because of the placebo effect. My response was I don't know and actually don't care about anything other than it worked for me and eliminated cravings, depression, etc. The effect was and is absolutely 'real' to me!

I'm sure the same is true with belief in a Higher Power.
 
That's BS. AA teaches you that you are powerless to your addiction and that you need the help of others (God). Instead they should teach you that you are in control of your own destiny, that you have complete control over your own actions and that in order to overcome your addictions you need to embrace your strengths.

AA is such a joke and so is the whole idea that you are powerless.

Most addicts attempt to quit using their willpower many times before going twelve step. Trying doesn't work for them, so it make sense to stop trying and to let an "outside force" (which may actually be another part of the brain) help. Part of the problem with trying is that it creates a feeling of shame when they slip, and avoiding that shameful feeling can be a motivation to use again.

Placebos work for many people in many situations.
 
That's BS. AA teaches you that you are powerless to your addiction and that you need the help of others (God). Instead they should teach you that you are in control of your own destiny, that you have complete control over your own actions and that in order to overcome your addictions you need to embrace your strengths.

AA is such a joke and so is the whole idea that you are powerless.

That's a pretty misleading summary of the AA approach. Just as an example, part of the process and a big topic in meetings is that sobriety cannot depend on outside forces - marriage, job, weather, how you feel that day, that if someone treated you badly it's OK to have a drink, etc. And much of learning to live sober is to learn how to embrace your own strengths - the Higher Power is ONE source of that strength, but certainly not the only one. The process is to figure out what strategies for staying sober work for each person, share them with each other, etc. No one says, "If you want a drink, then all you can do is pray in a corner."

The message really isn't - "you are powerless." The first step that mentions "powerless" is more than anything an admission that we can't "control" our drinking. It's a statement against doomed to fail moderation and for abstention from alcohol/drugs entirely.
 
Most addicts attempt to quit using their willpower many times before going twelve step. Trying doesn't work for them, so it make sense to stop trying and to let an "outside force" (which may actually be another part of the brain) help. Part of the problem with trying is that it creates a feeling of shame when they slip, and avoiding that shameful feeling can be a motivation to use again.

Placebos work for many people in many situations.

12 step programs work 3% of the time. Thats not a very good batting average.
 
12 step programs work 3% of the time. Thats not a very good batting average.

Do you have a cite for that?

Given the nature of AA, a lot will depend on how both the numerator and denominator are defined. Many people will come for a meeting or two and aren't even seen again. Is that person counted as a participant in AA? And what does it mean for AA to work - don't ever drink again? Etc. It's part of the reason there are no good stats that I've seen. It's probably lower than the AA touted number of around 40%, but IME far higher than 3%.

FWIW, I fully support any approach that works. AA is sort of polarizing. Many AA folks are zealots for AA and scoff at alternatives, and there are a number of people who are vehemently opposed to AA. To me it's like taking a hard line position on weight loss, or 'fitness.' Some methods work well for some people and fail others miserably. Whatever it takes is great with me, and in the meantime there are many thousands in AA living pretty good lives sober. That's a good thing.
 
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its non denominational you can even claim your "higher power" is mother earth, im sure there are a few atheist that would admit that the earth/nature/the universe/physics is a power greater than themselves

Keep equivocating over forced religious activities.
 
But the placebos of all kinds often have 'substantial' effects.

I was going to mention this earlier, but I accept the evidence that addiction is in part caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain and that a necessary step to long term recovery is fixing that imbalance so people feel more or less 'normal' when not using drugs. Time fixes some of these problems, but many unfortunate individuals deal with intense cravings years into recovery.

I followed a program to chemically 'fix' the imbalances and it worked beautifully for me. I mentioned this to my doctor and he (and others) suggested that my 'cure' was effective merely because of the placebo effect. My response was I don't know and actually don't care about anything other than it worked for me and eliminated cravings, depression, etc. The effect was and is absolutely 'real' to me!

I'm sure the same is true with belief in a Higher Power.

Yes, the human brain has a strange effect on how the body heals. Merely believing you will get better sometimes actually makes you heal faster. But that speaks to the power of the human mind, not the power of God or the power of sugar pills.

God, clearly, does not give a crap who prays when it comes to illness.
 
Part of me says "screw this asshole for trying to suck the government dry, it's his damn fault that he's in jail to begin with."

The other part of me says "this **** needs to stop, we don't live in the Midieval Ages where you believe in God or get punished."

At the end of the day he shouldn't get **** because he shouldn't be selling drugs like the inferior human he is.

Right, even swearing an oath should be free of religion if that person wants it. In the Netherlands it is very normal. Even when the dutch versions of congress and senate swore allegiance to the king, they were given an option. They could either say that they promise and swear/declare or the can say "I swear as the almighty god is my witness".

It may be strange that they swear allegiance to the king but before they do that, the king has sworn his allegiance to the country and the people of the kingdom. And even then, the members of congress and the senate are allowed not to partake in the swearing in ceremony. They already swore allegiance to the constitution so for it has no extra legal meaning. People who are republican (not as in the political party but the anti-kingdom republicans) do not have to swear allegiance to the king or queen.

Freedom of religion should also include freedom to not believe in a religion.
 
There's a constant battle of good and evil, right and wrong, positive and negative going on inside every one of us. Call it what you want but, you better hope the good, right, positive power wins out.

Yes, but stating that a power greater than yourself can restore your sanity and that you are powerless against your addiction is insanity IMHO, you are not powerless, you need to be empowered so that you yourself can defeat that evil inside of you. Now if you want to do that with the help of god then so be it, but it should not be a higher power but a higher power inside yourself.
 
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