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Thread: We are now bombing in Syria.

  1. #111
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    Re: We are now bombing in Syria.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Again, sanctions affect all trade, not just trade the US government does. Stopping my citizens from trading or benefiting from trade with people from your country is a violation of human rights and is a reason to declare war. My people have the right to free trade and any barring of the practice of that right by another government not only harms my economy, but my peoples ability to improve their lives. I see no reason to tolerate such aggression towards my people.
    No country has the right to demand trade from another unless both have made free-trade agreements that one has unilaterally violated. The US trade economy does not exist for Japan's benefit. The analogy to armed robbery is becoming more and more valid by the minute.
    Why should I just give in to the demands of another country to change my behavior? If I find it in my interest to wage war against China, that is what I will do and if you act aggressively towards me over the issue I will attack you too.
    You (keep in mind we're not talking individuals here, but entire countries) don't have to do anything, but don't expect countries that find genocidal expansionism horrifying to act as if nothing is happening.

    Your position is not that countries have no right to dictate how one nation behaves, which is somewhat arguable. Your position is that country A has the right to do anything to country B, and that country C must still behave according to the whims of country A.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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  2. #112
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    Re: We are now bombing in Syria.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Again, sanctions affect all trade, not just trade the US government does. Stopping my citizens from trading or benefiting from trade with people from your country is a violation of human rights and is a reason to declare war. My people have the right to free trade and any barring of the practice of that right by another government not only harms my economy, but my peoples ability to improve their lives. I see no reason to tolerate such aggression towards my people.

    Why should I just give in to the demands of another country to change my behavior? If I find it in my interest to wage war against China, that is what I will do and if you act aggressively towards me over the issue I will attack you too.
    I think you are confusing sanctions with a blockade.

  3. #113
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    Re: We are now bombing in Syria.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    If you are going to go around coercing people to do your will you have to expect they won't take kindly to it. They might attack you instead of doing what you want or they might do what you want, but attack you later for what you did to them.
    My violence in kind would be self-defense. Besides, sociopaths who think they can do anything with no negative consequences might have to be beaten down before they stop their murdering aggression.

    Since you seem inclined to drag this to an individual level, answer this hypothetical: say that I am the main customer of a local shopkeeper who has a wife and kids. At some point I find out that he beats, rapes, and kills random people. I then decide to stop buying from his shop - I don't attempt to restrain him in any other way. Would that justify him stabbing me?
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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  4. #114
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    Re: We are now bombing in Syria.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I think you are confusing sanctions with a blockade.
    He's not. Henrin is asserting that the US government's refusal to trade is an act of war because the people of Japan had some sort of right to trade with every country in the world. A blockade can be considered an act of war, since it is designed to prevent a different country from engaging in any trade, but that's not what he's describing.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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  5. #115
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    Re: We are now bombing in Syria.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    No country has the right to demand trade from another unless both have made free-trade agreements that one has unilaterally violated. The US trade economy does not exist for Japan's benefit. The analogy to armed robbery is becoming more and more valid by the minute.
    Your right, no country has a right to demand trade from another country, but again, we are not dealing with trade from the US government, but trade from US citizens that want to trade with people in Japan. Free trade agreements are an absurd notion anyway since trade between consenting parties of different countries is not something any government should be involved in.

    You (keep in mind we're not talking individuals here, but entire countries) don't have to do anything, but don't expect countries that find genocidal expansionism horrifying to act as if nothing is happening.

    Your position is not that countries have no right to dictate how one nation behaves, which is somewhat arguable. Your position is that country A has the right to do anything to country B, and that country C must still behave according to the whims of country A.
    If country C decides to attack country A to defend country B then country A has a right to defend themselves against country C.

  6. #116
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    Re: We are now bombing in Syria.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    My violence in kind would be self-defense. Besides, sociopaths who think they can do anything with no negative consequences might have to be beaten down before they stop their murdering aggression.
    No, it wouldn't. They are attacking China, so at best it would be third party self defense.

    Since you seem inclined to drag this to an individual level, answer this hypothetical: say that I am the main customer of a local shopkeeper who has a wife and kids. At some point I find out that he beats, rapes, and kills random people. I then decide to stop buying from his shop - I don't attempt to restrain him in any other way. Would that justify him stabbing me?
    That is not a good comparison since your action only affects your ability to trade with the individual. What happens with sanctions is that the government affects millions of peoples ability to trade with those individuals that also desire to trade with them by barring them from trading with each other.

  7. #117
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    Re: We are now bombing in Syria.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Your right, no country has a right to demand trade from another country, but again, we are not dealing with trade from the US government, but trade from US citizens that want to trade with people in Japan.
    They can move elsewhere. International trade is an element of international relations, therefore governments have the right to regulate it.

    If country C decides to attack country A to defend country B then country A has a right to defend themselves against country C.
    The US did not attack Japan. Only Japan introduced military force.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: We are now bombing in Syria.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    They can move elsewhere. International trade is an element of international relations, therefore governments have the right to regulate it.
    Oh great, so basically the people have to move so they can trade with each other again. That is like the robber telling his victims they can just buy more stuff. Yeah, I stole all your stuff, but it's not a problem because you can just buy more stuff.

    The US did not attack Japan. Only Japan introduced military force.
    They did attack japan by engaging in economic warfare. Japan was in the wrong to attack China, but they were in the right to defend themselves against the US. Sure, you can argue that Japan needed to be stopped, but that doesn't make it somehow not permissible for Japan to defend itself from the US. Was it a good way to stop it? Well, no, but what exactly is a good way to stop it? Just to give the US what it wants? So basically give in to coercion instead of fighting it. Hmm.

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    Re: We are now bombing in Syria.

    Quote Originally Posted by henrin View Post
    ..................................................

    they did attack japan by engaging in economic warfare. japan was in the wrong to attack china, but they were in the right to defend themselves against the us. Sure, you can argue that japan needed to be stopped, but that doesn't make it somehow not permissible for japan to defend itself from the us. was it a good way to stop it? Well, no, but what exactly is a good way to stop it? Just to give the us what it wants? So basically give in to coercion instead of fighting it. Hmm.
    what ?
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    Re: We are now bombing in Syria.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thom Paine View Post
    what ?
    What appears to be the problem?

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