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Thread: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

  1. #231
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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Yes, there are great many unstable people out there and recently they tend to be Muslims. Yet the criticism against Islam, or Muslims, is not criticized the way Jews, Christians or atheists are.

    We can see many threads here, as a small example, criticizing Christians and Jews (or Israel) but threads critical of Muslims are often called Islamophobic (though thankfully that term is dying out) or the ad hominems begin rather than straightforward debates. Why this is so (apart from fear) is a mystery. When criticism against Muslims is discouraged the playing field is no longer level. We can see the consequence of that when Jews and Americans are being blamed so frequently for any Islamic atrocity committed. It is giving credibility to Islamic violence.

    I'd certainly like an honest explanation from a leftist as to why they are so keen on protecting Muslims while attacking Christians and Jews but doubt there would be an honest answer.
    Again, I don't disagree with your sentiments here - you're right. I think my signature line should sufficiently make it clear where I fall in the discussion. But just because I have a point of view doesn't mean I don't want to be consistent and fair regardless of whether or not I support the content of the speech.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Jays? You mean the cute birds who frequently visit my yard? That team is still on the death watch for me and until both Gibbons and AA are gone, preferably Beeston too, they don't exist in my world. I'd love to see them finish under .500 and Tampa catch them.
    Well, AA isn't going anywhere.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

  3. #233
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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    Well, AA isn't going anywhere.
    Then I guess I'll be sitting on the sidelines again next year.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  4. #234
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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    And just to be clear, we're not talking strictly about free speech, but also about the use of government to facilitate that speech.
    I have no idea what that means. It makes no sense to talk about the freedom of speech without reference to government, because it is the government that the First Amendment prohibits from abridging the freedom of speech. What part of the Constitution do you imagine prohibits government from facilitating speech? Surely a city can sponsor a speaking or essay-writing competition. The Navy seems to be able to run recruiting ads on TV. And I'm always hearing some radio ad that's been paid for by the state of California, warning of the dangers of tobacco, or dog waste in the ocean.

    As I've said, I don't oppose the ads in other venues, just not in a government facility.
    What government facility? Is someone proposing to place these ads in the county courthouse? As I said, streets are a traditional public forum. So are sidewalks and public parks. The fact the government owns the buses changes nothing--it chose to rent out the sides of those buses for public speech, including speech by private persons. Unless that speech is defamation, or obscenity, or creates a clear and present danger of imminent lawless action, or falls in some other category of speech not protected by the First Amendment, the government may not discriminate against it based on its content.

    One other category of speech that states are free to ban--at least in theory--is "fighting words"--i.e. personally abusive epithets which, if addressed to an ordinary citizen, are likely to incite immediate physical retaliation. But the Court, on various grounds, has usually struck down laws against fighting words. For example, a defendant could not be punished under California law for wearing to court a jacket inscribed with the words "F--- the draft."

    Also, fighting words statutes can not discriminate against speech based on its content, punishing only certain viewpoints. So, a city ordinance under which a teenager had been punished for burning a cross on the lawn of a black family was unconstitutional, because it applied only to fighting words that incited violence only on the basis of race, religion, or gender.

    This decision also suggests that the Court no longer considers fighting words completely outside First Amendment protection. So good luck to the city in trying to argue that a picture of the Mufti of Jerusalem having a nice chat with Hitler (maybe they were talking about the Arab SS regiment the filthy bastard raised) should be prohibited as fighting words.

    And also to be clear, not everyone gets to exercise their free speech rights everywhere
    It's clear that very few constitutional rights are absolute, including the right to free speech.

    the subway isn't the public square - and you have to pay to place the ads and for a defined period of time - that's different from picketing out front.
    I don't know where subways come into this. The account cited in the original post stated that these ads would be placed on city buses. Buses run on streets, which are a public forum for free speech purposes. I don't know, either, why the length of time the speech takes place is relevant.

  5. #235
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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by GBFAN View Post
    A closed mind makes everything simple, doesn't it?
    I'll defer to your experience.
    "I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid people. I meant that stupid people are generally Conservatives."
    -John Stuart Mill-

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    I have to defend the right of the sponsors to place those adverts even though I think they are potentially harmful. The best response is to encourage another group to place adverts with a contrary viewpoint. I defend free speech rights and religious freedom for all people, both for Muslims and those who hate them.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Just as a point of interest, what would be wrong with denigrating the whole of Islam?
    All two billion Muslims (roughly 1/3 of the world's population) are not the same, there are several different sects and other differences between groups and individuals and most have never harmed anyone.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    I would ask what anyone thinks this "advertisement" is supposed to accomplish...

    "THIS TYPE OF MURDER IS BAD!"

    Yes. And?
    My guess is that they are hoping to cause a violent or destructive reaction from Muslims so that they can use the incident to further support their positions.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    A lot of those Muslims also loathe the United States. That makes them a natural fit with so-called liberals, many of whom share that loathing, even while they take up space here.
    Liberals don't hate the USA, we just disagree with aspects of our government's behavior and don't think much of all the hypocritical, ignorant bigots who make false accusations and think they have a right to decide that peaceful dissent is unpatriotic.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Liberals don't hate the USA, we just disagree with aspects of our government's behavior and don't think much of all the hypocritical, ignorant bigots who make false accusations and think they have a right to decide that peaceful dissent is unpatriotic.
    You can be sure I'll give your assertion all the weight it's worth. Faux liberals are always ready to leap to the defense of Islamists, because they both loathe most things about the United States. Anyone who has spent much time on forums like these knows that self-styled liberals seldom miss a chance to run down this country, despite the fact many of them choose to take up space here. Their cover story is invariably that they are just engaging in democratic dissent, constructive criticism, or some similar malarkey.

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