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Thread: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    It doesn't bother me. I don't understand the draw of religions - perhaps a childhood steeped in religion jaded me. I do think it's a sign that there's something missing in our society when young people look to other cultures/religions for meaning in their lives and acceptance. Perhaps it's a sign that these young people aren't as materialistic as we and most of our children are. That's not a bad thing, but perhaps we're not giving these young people the opportunities to express themselves in a spiritual way and they somehow find it there.

    I live in Toronto, one of the most culturally and racially diverse cities in the world, so seeing people who look different from me is a way of life here - in large parts of the city, an old white man like me is the oddity to some extent.
    Yes, I guess the Arab influence hits damages places differently. The bigger the place the less noticeable the damage perhaps. But when you are in smaller numbers even 10-20 lost "non-materialistic" members of the society seem too high!
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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    What the ad seeks to do, and I read some Geller for this, is to fight back in like manner against what is happening to the Jews in the Middle East as well as in both Europe and a growing number in North America as well. And that there is a double standard, or quadruple standards, at play here is undeniable.

    Why should anyone not be able to speak out against Islam, or Muslims? Why do we need couch are words in any way? Islam is a belief system and nothing more. It seems clear then that if we disagree with these beliefs, or find them rather foolish we should say so, or at least not be prevented from saying so. That they are beliefs, and nothing more, is why many try to use the term "racist" to thwart any criticism of Islam.

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    I don't disagree - my concern is with the venue and the potential for inciting violence. Plaster Time Square with these ads but not on public transit which may be a person's only source of getting around. It's not right, in my view, that a Muslim has to pay to ride a subway train and be targeted at the same time.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I don't disagree - my concern is with the venue and the potential for inciting violence. Plaster Time Square with these ads but not on public transit which may be a person's only source of getting around. It's not right, in my view, that a Muslim has to pay to ride a subway train and be targeted at the same time.
    I can understand their discomfort but others are having to deal with this reality and seeing some possible discomfort within the Muslim community may not be such a bad thing. Perhaps this will encourage others into taking some direct action against those who preach hate and intolerance in their community.

    I can see where it makes people uncomfortable, including me. But potential violence against whom? It seems that it's the Jews who are suffering genuine violence, and some outrageous criticisms, and Muslims should finally be put on the defensive rather than just falling back on the 'Not all Muslims..." cliche. Geller may be a pain in the ass but I think her voice is needed to really attract people's attention to the double standards at play in much of the media.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    Are you talking to me or the guy who bailed on his own thinking and posted only someone elses?
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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I can understand their discomfort but others are having to deal with this reality and seeing some possible discomfort within the Muslim community may not be such a bad thing. Perhaps this will encourage others into taking some direct action against those who preach hate and intolerance in their community.

    I can see where it makes people uncomfortable, including me. But potential violence against whom? It seems that it's the Jews who are suffering genuine violence, and some outrageous criticisms, and Muslims should finally be put on the defensive rather than just falling back on the 'Not all Muslims..." cliche. Geller may be a pain in the ass but I think her voice is needed to really attract people's attention to the double standards at play in much of the media.
    You make a fair point in your first paragraph and I can't disagree that public disgust is a contributing factor in getting any person or group of people to change their attitude/actions - you just have to look at what's going on in the NFL now to know the power of public disdain.

    I just fear that there seems to be an abundance of unstable and easily impressionable people out there who don't need much to trigger violent behavior in a mistaken belief they're doing good. But I guess we'll see - hopefully, I'm wrong.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I don't think you or I would disagree that the purpose of these ads is to stir up resentment at a minimum and active resentment either political or, more troubling resentment leading to physical violence. These aren't ads designed in the public service announcement category, at least from my view. They're dangerous, in my view, because they are so blatant in their message, and that makes them unsuitable in a public institution.
    You may think these ads are distasteful, inflammatory, unsuitable, or even that they will cause "resentment leading to physical violence."

    The issue, though, is not what this or that person thinks of the ads, but whether a state may prohibit a person from displaying them in public places based on their content. MTA's basis for denying Geller's group permission to display the ads seems to be that they are speech not protected by the First Amendment. In particular, it seems to be that they fall within a "clear and present danger" exception to the general rule that government may not regulate speech based on its content.

    This is the sort of speech Justice Holmes was referring to in Schenck v. United States, the 1919 decision in which he noted that the Constitution does not protect a person who falsely shouts fire in a crowded theater. The Court elaborated on this type of unprotected speech in Brandenburg v. Ohio in 1969.

    The rule is that a state may not forbid advocacy or the use of force or violation of the law, unless the advocacy is both:

    1) directed to producing or inciting imminent lawless action;

    and

    2) likely to produce or incite such action.


    So showing that the purpose of the speech is to produce or incite lawless action is just the first step. Even if you can do that, you also have to show the speech is likely to achieve its purpose. Hardest of all, in most cases, is to show that the lawless action likely to be produced or incited by the speech is imminent.

    So maddened with hatred against Muslims is the mere sight of one of these bus ads likely to make people, we're supposed to believe, that they will drop whatever they are doing, pick up the nearest object that they can use as a weapon, and criminally attack the nearest person they think is a Muslim. Right.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    I overly disagree with the first one in the OP. Using an isolated incident to paint the portrait that every Muslim is a decapitator waiting to happen is inflammatory as hell, and not remotely close to being true.

    I also don't think advocating killing those who disagree with you makes you any better than them.
    Hence my conflict.
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    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    If the truth is politically incorrect, then the truth be damned.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    You make a fair point in your first paragraph and I can't disagree that public disgust is a contributing factor in getting any person or group of people to change their attitude/actions - you just have to look at what's going on in the NFL now to know the power of public disdain.

    I just fear that there seems to be an abundance of unstable and easily impressionable people out there who don't need much to trigger violent behavior in a mistaken belief they're doing good. But I guess we'll see - hopefully, I'm wrong.
    Yes, there are great many unstable people out there and recently they tend to be Muslims. Yet the criticism against Islam, or Muslims, is not criticized the way Jews, Christians or atheists are.

    We can see many threads here, as a small example, criticizing Christians and Jews (or Israel) but threads critical of Muslims are often called Islamophobic (though thankfully that term is dying out) or the ad hominems begin rather than straightforward debates. Why this is so (apart from fear) is a mystery. When criticism against Muslims is discouraged the playing field is no longer level. We can see the consequence of that when Jews and Americans are being blamed so frequently for any Islamic atrocity committed. It is giving credibility to Islamic violence.

    I'd certainly like an honest explanation from a leftist as to why they are so keen on protecting Muslims while attacking Christians and Jews but doubt there would be an honest answer.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    You may think these ads are distasteful, inflammatory, unsuitable, or even that they will cause "resentment leading to physical violence."

    The issue, though, is not what this or that person thinks of the ads, but whether a state may prohibit a person from displaying them in public places based on their content. MTA's basis for denying Geller's group permission to display the ads seems to be that they are speech not protected by the First Amendment. In particular, it seems to be that they fall within a "clear and present danger" exception to the general rule that government may not regulate speech based on its content.

    This is the sort of speech Justice Holmes was referring to in Schenck v. United States, the 1919 decision in which he noted that the Constitution does not protect a person who falsely shouts fire in a crowded theater. The Court elaborated on this type of unprotected speech in Brandenburg v. Ohio in 1969.

    The rule is that a state may not forbid advocacy or the use of force or violation of the law, unless the advocacy is both:

    1) directed to producing or inciting imminent lawless action;

    and

    2) likely to produce or incite such action.


    So showing that the purpose of the speech is to produce or incite lawless action is just the first step. Even if you can do that, you also have to show the speech is likely to achieve its purpose. Hardest of all, in most cases, is to show that the lawless action likely to be produced or incited by the speech is imminent.

    So maddened with hatred against Muslims is the mere sight of one of these bus ads likely to make people, we're supposed to believe, that they will drop whatever they are doing, pick up the nearest object that they can use as a weapon, and criminally attack the nearest person they think is a Muslim. Right
    .
    If and when it happens, we'll have our answer.

    And just to be clear, we're not talking strictly about free speech, but also about the use of government to facilitate that speech. As I've said, I don't oppose the ads in other venues, just not in a government facility. And also to be clear, not everyone gets to exercise their free speech rights everywhere - the subway isn't the public square - and you have to pay to place the ads and for a defined period of time - that's different from picketing out front.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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