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Thread: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    There were people that wept when Stalin died, too. Your point?
    That nobody is defending radical Islam either.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Good evening Vesper - I don't disagree with your sentiment - but that doesn't mean a government service/facility should be used to express that sentiment. I'm sure there are thousands, if not tens of thousands of privately owned advertising venues in NYC that could be contracted to place these ads. As I said, my quarrel such as it is isn't with the content of the ads but the government venue being used.
    It is not the government though. The MTA authorities operate like quasi-private corporations, with boards of directors appointed by elected officials. Public authorities share characteristics with government agencies, but they are exempt from many state and local regulations. Metropolitan Transportation Authority (New York) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    one of the ads compares the actions of Hamas, a terrorist organization in palestine, to the actions of CAIR, which is the acronym for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, which is an organization dedicated to the advocacy and civil rights of american muslims.

    comparing CAIR to Hamas is factually untrue.
    If you have evidence that it's "factually untrue," you don't offer it. I think all you're saying is that the comparison irks you. Apparently there's at least one person here who's been taken in by the Islamists' efforts to portray CAIR as a moderate, reasonable group. And of course that's just why they created CAIR, as a public relations outfit to further Islamist causes while portraying Islamists as great guys who speak well and wear Western clothes. President Limpwrist and his senior officials frequently hobnob with CAIR officials, seeking their wise and unbiased counsel about all things Islamic.

    The two organizations have one obvious thing in common--they are both creations of the Muslim Brotherhood. HAMAS states in its charter that it is the "wing of the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine." The charter is available online--look it up. And I would have thought it was common knowledge that CAIR, like ISNA, IIIT, and quite a few other organizations, are front groups for the Muslim Brotherhood in the U.S. A Muslim Brotherhood document used as evidence in a federal trial some years ago, involving an Islamist group called the Holy Land Foundation, establish these connections pretty clearly. A number of the groups listed in this document were unindicted co-conspirators in the HLF case. This document is also available online, and I'd be glad to cite it for anyone who's interested.

  4. #164
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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    I acknowledged in an earlier post that the transit authority's decisions about what advertising to allow on buses are state action, as they would need to be for the Fourteenth Amendment to apply to them. And it has to do that, because it's only through it that the First Amendment applies to the states. In a series of decisions, the Supreme Court has applied first one clause of it and then another to them by holding they are incorporated in the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause. It's done the same with most--but not all--of the rest of the Bill of Rights.



    That would depend on the particular facts. But I don't see how these ads raise any issue under either the Establishment or Free Exercise Clauses.



    You can argue anything you want, but it's nice at least to have your arguments pass the laugh test. And I think your free exercise argument would have one hell of a hard time doing that. The clue should be that both this woman's group and the MTA's lawyers, who presumably have studied all this in great detail, have treated this as a free speech issue all along. After the MTA lost an earlier round, apparently, it tried to solve the free speech problem by casting these ads as incitement to imminent lawless action, making them speech the First Amendment doesn't protect. Cute--and contrived. Speech doesn't become unconstitutional in this country just because it makes some God damned Muslim jihadist son of a whore angry.



    There have been a number of Supreme Court cases involving displays of the Ten Commandments and other religious monuments and symbols in public places. In at least one of them, Van Orden v. Perry, the Court upheld the display of a granite monument inscribed with the Ten Commandments on the grounds of the Texas State Capitol. In his concurring opinion, which was decisive in the case, Justice Breyer quoted something Justices Goldberg and Harlan had written in a 1963 case, School Dist. of Abington Township v. Schempp:

    "The First Amendment does not prohibit practices which by any realistic measure create none of the dangers which it is designed to prevent and which do not so directly or substantially involve the state in religious exercise or in the favoring of religion as to have meaningful and practical impact."
    An excellent post and good advocacy of your position. I'd like to see this go to court, but don't know that it will.

    I'm a firm believer, however, that use of hate to overcome hate only grows more deep rooted and expanded hate. I don't see how such ads would encourage law abiding, respectful Muslims to inform law enforcement officials of activities within their places of worship and schools that are troubling and illegal. The heartening part, however, is that some Muslims do just that. It's why here in Canada we've had many activities reported and plans broken up. When this happens, however, we seem to simply say "see, we told you Muslims are terrorists" instead of focusing on the good that was done by disclosure.

    You'll claim my position is naive, and perhaps rightly so. The complication for me is that I'm not the slightest bit religious having been raised a Catholic and abandoned it once old enough to see first hand the rot within its hierarchy. But I don't begrudge or criticize any other person who is deeply religious. I no more think Islam makes you a terrorist than Catholicism makes you a pedophile, but clearly something is wrong here and I don't think this is a method that is going to garner much success - it will get lots of attention and gin up hate, but that's about it.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    it will get lots of attention and gin up hate, but that's about it.
    And if I had to guess, those are the only goals.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    And if I had to guess, those are the only goals.
    Why should people like or respect terrorists? And why would anyone 'hate' 'moderate' Muslims?

    The fact is that most Muslims do want to live peacefully, as we saw by those proud people in Iraq who pointed their purple fingers into the air when, for the first time in their lives, they were allowed to vote.

    Who took this freedom away from them? It was certainly not the 'moderates'! It was those Islamists who you see portrayed on that poster who did that, and who also threatened these people when they dared to vote.. They are the ones being target by these posters and not those Muslims who want to live in peace with their neighbors. You should be able to tell the difference between the two.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Good evening Vesper - I don't disagree with your sentiment - but that doesn't mean a government service/facility should be used to express that sentiment. I'm sure there are thousands, if not tens of thousands of privately owned advertising venues in NYC that could be contracted to place these ads. As I said, my quarrel such as it is isn't with the content of the ads but the government venue being used.
    Evening CJ. NYC collects revenue through ads to pay for services. There have been many controversial ads in the past you could say the same thing about. Many political in nature. It's what NYC does and just about every major city across the country. If someone renting space to display an advertisement for attorneys, or an organization promoting a view, or businesses, politicians, dentists, and insurance companies, the same argument could be made that government subsidized services have no business promoting one over another. I didn't hear any protest over any of the prior ones, just recently over Islamic extremism.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Those are only very extreme Conservatives, for one and two there are Liberals who agree.
    No there aren't. Anyone who agrees isn't liberal, I don't care what you or they say.
    "I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid people. I meant that stupid people are generally Conservatives."
    -John Stuart Mill-

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Evening CJ. NYC collects revenue through ads to pay for services. There have been many controversial ads in the past you could say the same thing about. Many political in nature. It's what NYC does and just about every major city across the country. If someone renting space to display an advertisement for attorneys, or an organization promoting a view, or businesses, politicians, dentists, and insurance companies, the same argument could be made that government subsidized services have no business promoting one over another. I didn't hear any protest over any of the prior ones, just recently over Islamic extremism.
    That's fair - I only took issue with it because of its close relationship to religion. I'm all for public transit using their space to generate revenue to keep taxpayer costs low and rider fees low as well. You didn't hear any complaints from me about the other stuff primarily because I never saw anything posted about it - but it wouldn't have been a first amendment discussion in any of those alternate cases you mentioned either.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Shocking Anti-Islam Ad Campaign Coming To New York City Buses And Subways

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Then you have abandoned the very principles you are claiming to protect.

    With the constitution shredded, rights violated, spying on civilians and arrest without warrant, how have the terrorists NOT won?
    What constitutional rights, specifically, are you claiming are being violated, by whom, and how? Quit hiding behind vagueness. Police arrest people without a warrant many hundreds of times every day in the U.S. They also conduct searches without a warrant, all the time. Police also spy on U.S. citizens through wiretaps, etc. all the time. What of it?

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