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Thread: Record 92,269,000 Not in Labor Force; Participation Rate Matches 36-Year Low

  1. #111
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    Re: Record 92,269,000 Not in Labor Force; Participation R ate Matches 36-Year Low

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Additionally to my above post,

    'un·em·ployed (nm-ploid, -m-)
    adj.
    1. Out of work, especially involuntarily; jobless.'


    unemployed - definition of unemployed by The Free Dictionary


    Thus, by definition, any person who is out of work, but wants to work, is unemployed.
    The definition you cite says nothing about "wants to work" nor does it say anything about availability, which you include in yours.

    By the dictionary definition, children, prisoners, people in institutions, are all unemployed. Only those working are not unemployed by the dictionary definition...which would put the unemployment rate at around 54%.
    Therefore, since the world has still/Much good, but much less good than ill,
    And while the sun and moon endure/Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure,
    I'd face it as a wise man would,/And train for ill and not for good.

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    Re: Record 92,269,000 Not in Labor Force; Participation R ate Matches 36-Year Low

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    ...

    This is simple; if you have no job, want a job and are generally available to work (regardless of your other complications or when you last 'actively' looked for work) - then you are an unemployed member of the work force in my opinion.
    ...
    There’s some unavoidable fuzziness about both "generally available to work" and "want a job."

    My former boss retired two years ago, but could still be tempted to come back to working if offered a high-six-figure salary. Does he want to work or not? He certainly is "available" if you pay him enough. But you could imagine the ambiguity of what may be considered "simple."

    There is no "true" unemployment rate, just various indicators that measure different things. Fortunately, these indicators pretty much move in tandem, so we’re not usually confused about whether the labor market is getting better or worse. But which measure you want to look at depends on what questions you’re asking.

    What is false, however, is the claim that unemployment is 92 million. That's just if you count everyone over 16 and less than 65, that doesn't have a job, regardless of whether they want a job or not. Those 62 year olds you recently retired, retired for a reason. They don't want to work any longer.
    "I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it." --J.S. Mill

  3. #113
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    Re: Record 92,269,000 Not in Labor Force; Participation R ate Matches 36-Year Low

    Quote Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
    There’s some unavoidable fuzziness about both "generally available to work" and "want a job."

    My former boss retired two years ago, but could still be tempted to come back to working if offered a high-six-figure salary. Does he want to work or not? He certainly is "available" if you pay him enough. But you could imagine the ambiguity of what may be considered "simple."

    There is no "true" unemployment rate, just various indicators that measure different things. Fortunately, these indicators pretty much move in tandem, so we’re not usually confused about whether the labor market is getting better or worse. But which measure you want to look at depends on what questions you’re asking.

    What is false, however, is the claim that unemployment is 92 million. That's just if you count everyone over 16 and less than 65, that doesn't have a job, regardless of whether they want a job or not.
    You make some good points. I may be quite willing to mow your lawn for $30 but not for $10. If taking a job only slightly increases (or reduces) my income (often by increasing my expenses) then why would I do so?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Record 92,269,000 Not in Labor Force; Participation R ate Matches 36-Year Low

    Quote Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
    There’s some unavoidable fuzziness about both "generally available to work" and "want a job."

    My former boss retired two years ago, but could still be tempted to come back to working if offered a high-six-figure salary. Does he want to work or not? He certainly is "available" if you pay him enough. But you could imagine the ambiguity of what may be considered "simple."
    Correct. Which is why, when the concept was being developed in the 1930's, the basic idea was the best way to know if someone wanted a job was to look at what he was doing about it. That's the "Activity" concept still used and which has been adopted by most other countries.

    There is no "true" unemployment rate, just various indicators that measure different things. Fortunately, these indicators pretty much move in tandem, so we’re not usually confused about whether the labor market is getting better or worse. But which measure you want to look at depends on what questions you’re asking.
    While I probably could say it better myself....I'm too lazy

    What is false, however, is the claim that unemployment is 92 million. That's just if you count everyone over 16 and less than 65, that doesn't have a job, regardless of whether they want a job or not. Those 62 year olds you recently retired, retired for a reason. They don't want to work any longer.
    65 and older is included as well. Many countries do have an upper age cap, but not the U.S. About 40% of those not in the labor force are retired.
    Therefore, since the world has still/Much good, but much less good than ill,
    And while the sun and moon endure/Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure,
    I'd face it as a wise man would,/And train for ill and not for good.

  5. #115
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    Re: Record 92,269,000 Not in Labor Force; Participation R ate Matches 36-Year Low

    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    ...

    65 and older is included as well. Many countries do have an upper age cap, but not the U.S. About 40% of those not in the labor force are retired.
    Conservatives often like to call the retired and those who are students and stay at home parents: "slackers".

    Ever notice that conservatives never seem to come up with any suggestions on how to lure retired people back into the labor market? Or any other fix for that matter. Maybe they believe that we should just have mass executions of everyone who isn't working - I dunno.

    And they never seem to identify what the problem is with this issue. Like why having more stay at home moms or more wealthy retired people is a problem. I guess those people could all start looking for jobs, but unless we have the jobs, and the demand to support those jobs, it wouldn't really effect our economy at all. We simply don't have a labor shortage.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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    Re: Record 92,269,000 Not in Labor Force; Participation R ate Matches 36-Year Low

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    Conservatives often like to call the retired and those who are students and stay at home parents: "slackers".

    Ever notice that conservatives never seem to come up with any suggestions on how to lure retired people back into the labor market? Or any other fix for that matter. Maybe they believe that we should just have mass executions of everyone who isn't working - I dunno.

    And they never seem to identify what the problem is with this issue. Like why having more stay at home moms or more wealthy retired people is a problem. I guess those people could all start looking for jobs, but unless we have the jobs, and the demand to support those jobs, it wouldn't really effect our economy at all. We simply don't have a labor shortage.
    There is a falacy in thinking that Republicans need a "suggestion" when it comes to ... well any of these domestic problems. Think about it, Democrats are for more government involvement, so of course there are going to be the ones to come up with all sort of suggestions so the government can (or try to) solve the problem. Republicans don't believe that every solution must begin with government, but with the private sector. So the next time you wonder "what is the Republican plan" understand that they may not have one, because they know that getting involved would only make things worse (see 90% of government programs ever...). And when they do have a suggestion, it generally means they are giving away responsibilities. Take the VA issue for example, many Republicans just wanted to hand out vouchers and allow the veterans to get help from private facilities.

    It really all boils down to just how much you believe government can accomplish, or more importantly, how efficiently it can.

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    Re: Record 92,269,000 Not in Labor Force; Participation R ate Matches 36-Year Low

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    This is simple; if you have no job, want a job and are generally available to work (regardless of your other complications or when you last 'actively' looked for work) - then you are an unemployed member of the work force in my opinion.

    The BLS (and you I assume) don't agree...fine, you don't agree. With respect, I don't much care if you two don't agree.
    The BLS reports all those numbers and has six alternate definitions of "unemployment rate" to cover multiple scenarios. Are you saying the "official" rate that is now designated as U-3 ought to be U-5 or U-6? That would be fine, but as someone else pointed out, you'll have to go back in time and redefine "unemployment" from at least the early Clinton administration, which is as I recall the last time the definitions were changed. Or, you could pull U-5 and/or U-6 from all those years and present that in a graph for a more comprehensive look at true "unemployment."

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    Re: Record 92,269,000 Not in Labor Force; Participation R ate Matches 36-Year Low

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    There is a falacy in thinking that Republicans need a "suggestion" when it comes to ... well any of these domestic problems. Think about it, Democrats are for more government involvement, so of course there are going to be the ones to come up with all sort of suggestions so the government can (or try to) solve the problem. Republicans don't believe that every solution must begin with government, but with the private sector. So the next time you wonder "what is the Republican plan" understand that they may not have one, because they know that getting involved would only make things worse (see 90% of government programs ever...). And when they do have a suggestion, it generally means they are giving away responsibilities. Take the VA issue for example, many Republicans just wanted to hand out vouchers and allow the veterans to get help from private facilities.

    It really all boils down to just how much you believe government can accomplish, or more importantly, how efficiently it can.
    Great answer, perfectly logical.

    Except that it still leaves conservatives with no answers to our problems. Now maybe a better answer would have included government action, like cutting taxes for the middle class, or giving a list of specific regulations that should be repealed in order to allow our economy to expand, creating more jobs and jobs with higher paying wages.

    Conservatives often do make generally statements about these things (cutting taxes and reducing regulations), but they rarely offer up a specific plan that includes specific taxes that they want to eliminate which will lure people back into the labor market, or specific regulations to end.

    Reducing government IS governmental action.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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    Re: Record 92,269,000 Not in Labor Force; Participation Rate Matches 36-Year Low

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    An administration that declares a 6.1% unemployment rate in this economy is either ignorant or disingenuous. Which is it?
    The BLS is using the same definitions they've used for decades now. It's true that U-3 isn't a complete picture of the unemployment situation, but then that's why BLS publishes all the other data people are using here to discredit U-3, and U-4 through U-6. The information is out there, and Obama is using the same yardstick used by Bush and Clinton at least. Now he has to use a different yardstick that gives worse numbers because why exactly? Did you demand that Bush use U-6 instead of U-3?

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    Re: Record 92,269,000 Not in Labor Force; Participation R ate Matches 36-Year Low

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You make some good points. I may be quite willing to mow your lawn for $30 but not for $10. If taking a job only slightly increases (or reduces) my income (often by increasing my expenses) then why would I do so?
    I agree and would dare say that better compensation or working conditions are the only things that would lure workforce dropouts back into the work force.

    But at this particular point in time, when we have a high unemployment rate, the private sector don't need more people in the work force.

    That's why the lfpr to me is pointless. If companies need more workers than they can find, they will offer to pay more, or they will give more hours to workers who want to work more. Until our unemployment rate drops below 5% or so, that's simply not likely to happen.

    I find it odd that the same people who are complaining about our declining lfpr are against the types of things that may draw more workers into the work force, such as lower taxes for the middle class and/or a higher minimum wage.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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