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Thread: Teen sues DMV after being told to remove makeup

  1. #21
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    Re: Teen sues DMV after being told to remove makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The purpose of the photo is to identify him for who he is, who he presents himself as, not to uphold gender stereotypes.
    I personally think it's wrong to try to make this teen remove makeup, but if he is a "he", shouldn't his identification identify him as such? He is not a female, and his ID should reflect that fact.

    They didn't even let me smile in my updated passport photo. Identification requirements are quirky things.

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    Re: Teen sues DMV after being told to remove makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I personally think it's wrong to try to make this teen remove makeup, but if he is a "he", shouldn't his identification identify him as such? He is not a female, and his ID should reflect that fact.

    They didn't even let me smile in my updated passport photo. Identification requirements are quirky things.
    You fail in thinking that a male, a guy, a boy, a man is identified in whether or not he wears makeup or what kind of clothes or jewelry he wears. That has absolutely nothing to do with what makes a person male. Those are simply our societal/cultural norms for what each sex/gender normally wears or doesn't wear. It has absolutely nothing to do with what gender/sex they are or even consider themselves to be.
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    Re: Teen sues DMV after being told to remove makeup

    I think Roguenuke's position is kind of unassailable if unexpected. If a license's purpose is identification, and if the DMV believes that makeup impedes that aim, then it doesn't make sense for makeup to be acceptable for one gender and not the other.

    On an unrelated note, why are some people so happy to sue? I've sued once, and it sucked. I would do everything to avoid that horrible experience again.

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    Re: Teen sues DMV after being told to remove makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You fail in thinking that a male, a guy, a boy, a man is identified in whether or not he wears makeup or what kind of clothes or jewelry he wears. That has absolutely nothing to do with what makes a person male. Those are simply our societal/cultural norms for what each sex/gender normally wears or doesn't wear. It has absolutely nothing to do with what gender/sex they are or even consider themselves to be.
    Um, excuse me? I never said that a male is identified by what he wears. A male is identified by virtue of his chromosome makeup.

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    Re: Teen sues DMV after being told to remove makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I personally think it's wrong to try to make this teen remove makeup, but if he is a "he", shouldn't his identification identify him as such? He is not a female, and his ID should reflect that fact.

    They didn't even let me smile in my updated passport photo. Identification requirements are quirky things.
    They asked people to smile in the DMV just a couple of weeks ago when I went to get my learner's permit. They also didn't make me take off my glasses.

    There wouldn't be an issue if everyone was made to remove their makeup, if no one could wear makeup for their photo. The issue comes from the fact that he was only asked to remove his makeup because his license identifies him as male. If he isn't going to be dressing like a "male" normally dresses while out on the rode, in public, driving, then there is no reason for him to fit the stereotypical male appearance for his license. It doesn't represent him.

    It would be like asking me to wear makeup because someone can't tell that I'm "female".
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    Re: Teen sues DMV after being told to remove makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    They asked people to smile in the DMV just a couple of weeks ago when I went to get my learner's permit. They also didn't make me take off my glasses.

    There wouldn't be an issue if everyone was made to remove their makeup, if no one could wear makeup for their photo. The issue comes from the fact that he was only asked to remove his makeup because his license identifies him as male. If he isn't going to be dressing like a "male" normally dresses while out on the rode, in public, driving, then there is no reason for him to fit the stereotypical male appearance for his license. It doesn't represent him.

    It would be like asking me to wear makeup because someone can't tell that I'm "female".
    The DMV doesn't make me take off my glasses either. I need them to drive. It's on my license. And?

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    Re: Teen sues DMV after being told to remove makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    A 16-year old in South Carolina sued the states Department of Motor vehicles on Tuesday because the agency won't allow him to take a driver's license photo wearing makeup.

    Read the article here: Teen sues DMV after being told to remove makeup


    I predict that this young person will win this lawsuit.

    This is all about the state of South Carolina trying to control people.


    "Tolerance is giving to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." ~ Robert Green Ingersoll
    Actually, I don't think he should win. It's legitimate state interest for government to ban costumes and disguises for official state ID. They already do so, I don't think this is outside precedent. It's not controlling people since there is no general law against it.
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    Re: Teen sues DMV after being told to remove makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    To quote Yogi Berra, this seems like deja vu all over again. Didn't we have this discussion about 8 months ago?

    Anyway, my position remains the same - if the government, the issuer of the privilege, believes you are in costume or disguise when getting your driver's license ID pic, they have the right to deny you the license. You should appear as natural as possible in such pics, in my view. A driver's license is not a right.

    Then we have a serious problem in Canada, where Muslim women can vote with their faces hidden in a Burkha.

    Which raises the standard here a tad, as if this is the rule, an orthodox woman cannot get a license without removing her obligatory religious garment.

    I agree on what "should" be here, but what has been missed is that if this is for identification then shouldn't the photo be as the person would look in normal day-to-day life?
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    Re: Teen sues DMV after being told to remove makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Um, excuse me? I never said that a male is identified by what he wears. A male is identified by virtue of his chromosome makeup.
    Actually, legally, on a license, a "male" is identified by his birth certificate, not his DNA or chromosomes. That is what puts that "male" indicator on a state ID, the birth certificate or how what sex they are identified by the state as.

    If he isn't identified as male by whether or not he wears makeup, then there is no reason he should have been forced to remove his makeup just because he is identified as male on his photo ID.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Teen sues DMV after being told to remove makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Actually, legally, on a license, a "male" is identified by his birth certificate, not his DNA or chromosomes. That is what puts that "male" indicator on a state ID, the birth certificate or how what sex they are identified by the state as.

    If he isn't identified as male by whether or not he wears makeup, then there is no reason he should have been forced to remove his makeup just because he is identified as male on his photo ID.
    What does that have to do with anything? His birth certificate says he's a male because he was born with a penis. He's a male because of his chromosomes.

    For the second time, I never said anyone is identified by a male or a female based on makeup or what the person wears.

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