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Thread: Arming Ukraine could lead to nuclear war: Lech Walesa

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    Re: Arming Ukraine could lead to nuclear war: Lech Walesa

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    If Russia will use nuclear weapons, they will eventually do so, regardless of what we do.

    At some point, the west is going to have to confront Putin. So... if he's gonna push the proverbial button, he will regardless.

    I seriously doubt that he will, as long as no one invades Russia proper. To do so would be suicide, and he knows it.

    Let's get real. If Russia wanted Ukraine, they would just take it. Something more must be going on here. Perhaps the USA's subversive efforts to dissemble Ukraine's economics from Russia might be a factor? Perhaps stiffing Russia for $4.8 billion in past due gas bills could be a factor? Perhaps privatizing a pipeline to Europe carrying a substantial portion of Russian gas might be a factor? Talking about Ukraine buying reverse flow gas from a pipeline majority-filled from the Russian end might be a factor? Perhaps USA wanting to control the throttle on energy to the EU as a geo-political ploy might be a factor? Pethaps the USA wants all these Euro area Nations in the same Central Banking loop instead of like Iceland, and that might account of why billionaire oligarchs have been the annoited leaders (hint, if you have a billion dollars you are a banker, like it or not). Perhaps attempting to outlaw the Russian language spoken in South and East Ukraine and referring to these residents as cockroaches (colorados) that need to be exterminated could be a factor? Perhaps allowing Nazis in the Ukrainian gov't did not sit well in South and East Ukraine where German Nazis killed 20 million+ Russians during WWII was a factor? Could this war be between Ukrainians and Ukrainians and not Ukrainians and Russians, because if it is Ukrainians against Ukraininans then negotiations should be between Kiev and the Separatists and could that be a factor? Could the "Black Hole of MH17" indict Kiev and could that be a factor? Russia has not invaded, but perhaps many South And East Ukraine Grandma's grandchildren working in Russia where there are jobs have dropped in for a visit to help Grandma and brought weapons to be useful , because Grandma is being bombarded by artillery, and could that be a factor? This is just another manifestation of the power of the Big Energy lobby in USA politics.. Control the Nation's energy and banking and control the Nation. Could that be a factor?

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    Re: Arming Ukraine could lead to nuclear war: Lech Walesa

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Arming Ukraine could lead to nuclear war




    Russia and NATO square off over Ukraine





    Is this a situation that the US should use it's power and influence to encourage NATO to back off from, or help them?
    Back off.

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    Re: Arming Ukraine could lead to nuclear war: Lech Walesa

    Putin is not going to use nuclear weapons over Ukraine.


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    Re: Arming Ukraine could lead to nuclear war: Lech Walesa

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    He "might" be worried about us, but Europe? Nope, not even alittle.
    NATO has nukes, enough to obliterate Europe and Russia.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    Re: Arming Ukraine could lead to nuclear war: Lech Walesa

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    If we let Putin continue, he may feel there's no reason to stop going after Baltic states. But if we back NATO and arm the Ukraine, he might ramp it up dramatically with heavy strikes.

    Dicey situation.
    With the Baltics, I know Lithuania is a NATO member, so we have no choice there.

    Ukraine is not. They're not in NATO, and they're not a stable democracy. Arming the current government just says "We don't care about elections or the democratic process as long as you're vaguely on our side." Bad move, IMO.

    At this point, Putin is softening. The rebels are reportedly willing to take being an autonomous region within Ukraine as part of a deal.

    Ukraine rebels demand autonomy amid talks - timesofmalta.com

    If Putin is in fact calling the shots there, this could be a way out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Arming Ukraine could lead to nuclear war: Lech Walesa

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    One concern I have is that nuclear use is not in Putin's hands like it is in the US. Russia gives the commanding general the final codes, and relies on chain of command loyalty to prevent a launch. Or at least that's the way it used to be. Not so sure if it's still that way.

    My primary concern is what would happen if we arm the Ukrainians and they cross into Russia - then we'd have a real problem and Putin would be justified in attacking us.
    We don't need another proxy war. What we need to do is beef up the military posture of all NATO nations and make sure that lines of communication remain open and obvious. We need to do the same thing with Israel. There should be no question whatsoever where our interests lie.

    We should also start working out, very publicly, how we can handle the gas and oil needs of Europe without Russian supplies. Make it clear to Putin that a win in the Ukraine is going to result in a loss of western markets. If he wants the old Soviet Union he can have it on pretty much the same terms as he had 30 years ago.

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    Re: Arming Ukraine could lead to nuclear war: Lech Walesa

    It appears Putin may have inspired a renewed interest in NATO. Especially for those small countries along Russia's borders.

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    Re: Arming Ukraine could lead to nuclear war: Lech Walesa

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We don't need another proxy war. What we need to do is beef up the military posture of all NATO nations and make sure that lines of communication remain open and obvious. We need to do the same thing with Israel. There should be no question whatsoever where our interests lie.

    We should also start working out, very publicly, how we can handle the gas and oil needs of Europe without Russian supplies. Make it clear to Putin that a win in the Ukraine is going to result in a loss of western markets. If he wants the old Soviet Union he can have it on pretty much the same terms as he had 30 years ago.
    Well said. And agreed.

    NATO exists for a reason. I prefer NATO over the UN, and Putin needs to know we stand with our allies. The Balkans and other new, small, NATO countries are very worried because they don't know where we stand. We should stop the anti-Israel stance the current administration began as soon as they took power, and stand by ALL our allies.

    At least we are beefing up our NATO presence, but that isn't enough. Obama going to Estonia before the NATO summit is a good thing as well - as long as he doesn't tell them they're on there own, which I doubt he would do.
    Everything in your life is a reflection of a choice you have made. If you want a different result, don't blame someone else, or expect others to make a change, you should stop complaining and make a different choice. Remember, the circumstances of your birth don't determine the outcome of your life.

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    Re: Arming Ukraine could lead to nuclear war: Lech Walesa

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    It appears Putin may have inspired a renewed interest in NATO. Especially for those small countries along Russia's borders.
    Very true. Those that were hesitant to look at a NATO membership are probably rethinking their position in the light of the aggressive Russian actions.
    Everything in your life is a reflection of a choice you have made. If you want a different result, don't blame someone else, or expect others to make a change, you should stop complaining and make a different choice. Remember, the circumstances of your birth don't determine the outcome of your life.

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    Re: Arming Ukraine could lead to nuclear war: Lech Walesa

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    Well said. And agreed.

    NATO exists for a reason. I prefer NATO over the UN, and Putin needs to know we stand with our allies. The Balkans and other new, small, NATO countries are very worried because they don't know where we stand. We should stop the anti-Israel stance the current administration began as soon as they took power, and stand by ALL our allies.

    At least we are beefing up our NATO presence, but that isn't enough. Obama going to Estonia before the NATO summit is a good thing as well - as long as he doesn't tell them they're on there own, which I doubt he would do.
    Exactly.

    The crux of the biscuit is that we can't make everyone happy. That just isn't going to happen. To that end we need to stand solidly along side those with whom we have a common interest.

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