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Thread: Michael brown paid, full footage shows

  1. #91
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    Re: Michael brown paid, full footage shows

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I went back and reread it - not sure what point you want me to address.
    Thanks

    If you're trying to claim that the Brown death is an example of an innocent young black man being killed by police, you've picked a really bad example to make the point. I may grant you that it happens in the US, but here in Canada there are also concerns about police shooting and killing people of various races, mostly white as it turns out, who act in a threatening manner and end up being mentally ill or suffering from a mental episode of some sort. But they were still threatening, often with a weapon but not always
    It's my understanding that we don't know yet if Brown was being threatening. I know there are claims that he was but I don't believe that's been proven at this point.

    ...Brown is a terrible example to use
    Why

    ... you cannot credibly deny that crime among young black men is significantly higher, in many communities, than crime among other races
    I won't argue with you about whether or not this is true because it's too off topic but I could easily

    On the basis of the facts as presented so far and the circumstances of the confrontation - time of day, location, Brown's prior actions, etc. - lead me to believe this was a justified killing by the officer - you'll have to do a hell of a lot more than simply smear by association to convince me otherwise.
    1-I'm not sure what you mean by "smear by association"
    2-What are you calling facts

    I do this all the time. I post something and believe that an intelligent and objective conversation will evolve from it in which I can further explain my thinking. That rarely happens. Instead people with extreme points of view jump and just start bashing. ( not you obviously) I honestly need to re-evaluate my technique.

    I was hoping to draw attention to the fact that there were other ways one could have interpreted that video. This video actually doesn't prove or disprove anything. People see what they want to see or whatever supports decisions they have already made. Regardless of what those opinions may be. So in this case, people who already decided that MB was another out of control violent thug, watched that video and saw just that. Which is exactly what whoever released that video hoped would happen and this is typical of these types of situations. People buy into the negative and unfounded stereotypes about these young men and are far too easily lead to making assumptions about their character of all things with very little info. Would you say it would provide someone an accurate picture of your character if they were provided one little video clip of you? I don't think so. So my point, in part, was just that. Stop making it so easy to demonize this young man or anyone else just because it justifies your prejudice.

    Secondly, I had hoped to draw attention to fact that a disproportionate amount of unarmed young black men are shot dead. Regardless of why this is taking place we should all be concerned about that fact.

    Thirdly when something like this happens a large number of people completely dismiss the outrage it taps into within the black community. They but on blinders and look at this single incident, seemingly baffled at the disproportionate protest with no respect or acknowledgement of the bigger picture. They dismiss the complaints of this group of individuals completely. I'd be outraged too.
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
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  2. #92
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    Re: Michael brown paid, full footage shows

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    Thanks


    It's my understanding that we don't know yet if Brown was being threatening. I know there are claims that he was but I don't believe that's been proven at this point.


    Why


    I won't argue with you about whether or not this is true because it's too off topic but I could easily



    1-I'm not sure what you mean by "smear by association"
    2-What are you calling facts

    I do this all the time. I post something and believe that an intelligent and objective conversation will evolve from it in which I can further explain my thinking. That rarely happens. Instead people with extreme points of view jump and just start bashing. ( not you obviously) I honestly need to re-evaluate my technique.

    I was hoping to draw attention to the fact that there were other ways one could have interpreted that video. This video actually doesn't prove or disprove anything. People see what they want to see or whatever supports decisions they have already made. Regardless of what those opinions may be. So in this case, people who already decided that MB was another out of control violent thug, watched that video and saw just that. Which is exactly what whoever released that video hoped would happen and this is typical of these types of situations. People buy into the negative and unfounded stereotypes about these young men and are far too easily lead to making assumptions about their character of all things with very little info. Would you say it would provide someone an accurate picture of your character if they were provided one little video clip of you? I don't think so. So my point, in part, was just that. Stop making it so easy to demonize this young man or anyone else just because it justifies your prejudice.

    Secondly, I had hoped to draw attention to fact that a disproportionate amount of unarmed young black men are shot dead. Regardless of why this is taking place we should all be concerned about that fact.

    Thirdly when something like this happens a large number of people completely dismiss the outrage it taps into within the black community. They but on blinders and look at this single incident, seemingly baffled at the disproportionate protest with no respect or acknowledgement of the bigger picture. They dismiss the complaints of this group of individuals completely. I'd be outraged too.
    A lot to digest and comment on here:

    1. No need to change your style - regardless of how you addressed the thread, there are pretty firmly set views by most observers here on DP and I'd venture also in the public at large. Much of it comes from a biased interpretation of the "facts" so far known - I wouldn't discount bias though, because much of what you've said in your post above comes from your own set of biases and there's nothing wrong with that because much of who we are as individuals is molded by our independent experiences and life circumstances which makes debate and discussion so interesting - at least for me. I don't have a particular agenda to push here, although I do obviously have a set of biases that skew towards support for law enforcement.

    2. A significant part of the problem with the link you posted in your OP and the video it contains is that it show only a small part of the entire video that has been up on these pages for a long time. Most significantly, it doesn't include what clearly looks like an assault or at least strong intimidation of a much smaller man, purportedly the clerk/owner of the store. Because your OP has a video that has been altered or cut to support a particular bias, it is open for attack - you being the presenter of the link are therefore attacked for supporting it - that comes with the territory unless, of course, you criticize the link in your OP - without that criticism you are viewed as trying to spread that same dishonest bias.

    3. I know there are several well publicized cases where a black youth has been shot or "assaulted" by white police in the US, but not that many, all things considered. Are there statistics on police shootings and the racial make-up of the "victim" and the police involved. It would be interesting to see if the impression left, as you state, that "a disproportionate amount of unarmed black youth are being shot dead", is factually true or just an impression left by the overemphasis of the media and the racial discord circus that follows well publicized events. How many unarmed white youth are being shot dead? - how man unarmed black youth are being shot dead by black officers? How many police officers, white or otherwise, have been shot by black youth? by white youth? Does anyone know - or does actually knowing such things not fit anyone's particular agenda in America today?

    4. The very fact that you say "a disproportionate amount of unarmed black youth are being shot dead" without any statistical evidence related to the questions I raise above seems to me to demonize police and support your own set of prejudices so it's not reasonable to expect that you won't be challenged, severely, on those same grounds. When you make loaded comments like that, you will naturally not get away with it, unscathed.

    Finally, I don't think most intelligent, thoughtful people dismiss the outrage of those who are truly hurt and outraged by this event - however, their outrage takes a back seat when the wandering lawless decide to take over the public persona of the outrage through looting, violence, destruction of private property, etc. all for no clear reason related to the incident. It's not hard to imagine that even some people with good intentions and fair minds and hearts will become a little jaded when the go to response from the black community to any perceived wrong is to go on a lawless rampage against innocent victims.

    You can't have a serious and thought provoking discussion when it begins from an extreme bias that many reject out of hand.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Michael brown paid, full footage shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    One. More. Time.

    If the links are so ubiquitous then post them. This thread and about five others are filled with people quoting memes, and this one has at least seven requests for a link. So far, only comments/opinion/bs that there are many, many, many.

    Pardon me, but I have stopped believing all of you all together. when you can array these so very plentiful links on which you have based the absolute public conviction of a dead boy please let me know.

    Until then, I suggest this stupid and childish game of "is so" is an insult. if you have the goods, bring 'em. otherwise please keep the pie hole firmly closed.
    Go back and read....

    Links have already been posted for the original unedited video and the news report where reporters were talking to the Attorney of/And Dorian Johnson himself.

    Im not going to save these links in a notepad and re-copy/paste them every time someone wants this stuff reposted.

    Its in the thread.... go look for it.

    EDIT: And, don't call him "boy". Thats racist.. you should know that.

  4. #94
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    Re: Michael brown paid, full footage shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Only by race baiting retards. You people refers to a group of people that are being spoken to by the person who is directing their comments to them. Thats what it means anywhere. The whole "you people" thing being racist is just another way to try to control others and ignore what is being said.

    Its rather pedantic and pathetic.
    Conservative isn't a race.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  5. #95
    Why so serious?

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    Re: Michael brown paid, full footage shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Well here..."you people" can be and often is taken with racist implications. Being mutli-cultural and having so many cultures, such a reference could mean a generalization about an identifiable group. Sometimes such comments lead to criminal charges....

    The use of it here is insulting.
    Is it a dog whistle or a code word? I can't keep up with all the twists and convolutions of race baiter language classification these days.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

    --Albert Einstein, 1929

  6. #96
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    Re: Michael brown paid, full footage shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon View Post
    Is it a dog whistle or a code word? I can't keep up with all the twists and convolutions of race baiter language classification these days.
    Race baiter?

    Extreme what?
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
    Donald Trump, 11/23/17

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    Re: Michael brown paid, full footage shows

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    A lot to digest and comment on here:
    1. No need to change your style - regardless of how you addressed the thread, there are pretty firmly set views by most observers here on DP and I'd venture also in the public at large. Much of it comes from a biased interpretation of the "facts" so far known - I wouldn't discount bias though, because much of what you've said in your post above comes from your own set of biases and there's nothing wrong with that because much of who we are as individuals is molded by our independent experiences and life circumstances which makes debate and discussion so interesting - at least for me. I don't have a particular agenda to push here, although I do obviously have a set of biases that skew towards support for law enforcement.
    Agreed. However, we do have the capacity as humans to move past all of that and be objective. I see this as a choice. I think most people sense when they have shut themselves off to new information or when they are being more emotional than objective. We all do it we just don't all make the effort to stop it.

    2. A significant part of the problem with the link you posted in your OP and the video it contains is that it show only a small part of the entire video that has been up on these pages for a long time. Most significantly, it doesn't include what clearly looks like an assault or at least strong intimidation of a much smaller man, purportedly the clerk/owner of the store. Because your OP has a video that has been altered or cut to support a particular bias, it is open for attack - you being the presenter of the link are therefore attacked for supporting it - that comes with the territory unless, of course, you criticize the link in your OP - without that criticism you are viewed as trying to spread that same dishonest bias.
    I understand all that, I just think it's weak-minded.

    I will agree that at first it could and does in fact appear that way. But when someone takes a moment to read what is written and maybe ask a couple of questions with an open mind, it's pretty easy to see that's not what's happening. This is the way of things nowadays it seems. It's like they were all raised by Rush Limbaugh

    The video is short because it shows only what is necessary to make it's point. Why can't people view the video, and if they do come to the conclusion that it is does not prove it's point, simply state that? Why is it necessary for them to then to go on some tirade about the malicious intent of the author? If a person can present a sound argument stating why they feel the video is inadequate, the tearing of a new asshole really shouldn't be necessary.

    I don't agree that this video shows the strong arm intimidation of a much smaller man. It shows a conflict between two men. That's all. We don't know by simply the viewing the content of this video who started it.


    3. I know there are several well publicized cases where a black youth has been shot or "assaulted" by white police in the US, but not that many, all things considered. Are there statistics on police shootings and the racial make-up of the "victim" and the police involved. It would be interesting to see if the impression left, as you state, that "a disproportionate amount of unarmed black youth are being shot dead", is factually true or just an impression left by the overemphasis of the media and the racial discord circus that follows well publicized events. How many unarmed white youth are being shot dead? - how man unarmed black youth are being shot dead by black officers? How many police officers, white or otherwise, have been shot by black youth? by white youth? Does anyone know - or does actually knowing such things not fit anyone's particular agenda in America today?
    All good questions. I actually did some research on this and apparently race is not tracked in these events. To find out you need to go about collecting the data with a more unconventional route. Based on what I've read, yes, it is disproportionate. I find it a little shocking that a community of people can be this agitated over an injustice they claim to be suffering that anyone can think for even a minute that it's all made up. Wow. Really!? I hear this again and again. That to me seems like another example of an entire race of people who are minimized and not heard.

    4. The very fact that you say "a disproportionate amount of unarmed black youth are being shot dead" without any statistical evidence related to the questions I raise above seems to me to demonize police and support your own set of prejudices so it's not reasonable to expect that you won't be challenged, severely, on those same grounds. When you make loaded comments like that, you will naturally not get away with it, unscathed.
    No, you see I don't do that. Things are never that black and white. Just because I make an observation it does not immediately follow that I demonize. Even if the prejudice of the police officer influenced his decision to shoot I would be empathetic to his circumstances and seek out solutions rather than blame. At this point I have no more reason to believe this officer was an angry bigot than I have to believe that MB was a gentle giant and played no role in his own death. That's called being objective and I know that you are smart enough to get that

    Finally, I don't think most intelligent, thoughtful people dismiss the outrage of those who are truly hurt and outraged by this event - however, their outrage takes a back seat when the wandering lawless decide to take over the public persona of the outrage through looting, violence, destruction of private property, etc. all for no clear reason related to the incident. It's not hard to imagine that even some people with good intentions and fair minds and hearts will become a little jaded when the go to response from the black community to any perceived wrong is to go on a lawless rampage against innocent victims.
    Here is the thing though. It's not the black community that's doing it. It's a few people who have been drawn to this event so they can act out their rage. To blame the entirety of the "black community" is yet another example to me of the kind of dismissiveness that we have subjected them too throughout their history in this country. It's like looking at the Christians from Westborough and labeling what they do as the behaviors of the Christian community.
    Last edited by opendebate; 08-24-14 at 10:35 PM.
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
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  8. #98
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    Re: Michael brown paid, full footage shows

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    Agreed. However, we do have the capacity as humans to move past all of that and be objective. I see this as a choice. I think most people sense when they have shut themselves off to new information or when they are being more emotional than objective. We all do it we just don't all make the effort to stop it.



    I understand all that, I just think it's weak-minded.

    I will agree that at first it could and does in fact appear that way. But when someone takes a moment to read what is written and maybe ask a couple of questions with an open mind, it's pretty easy to see that's not what's happening. This is the way of things nowadays it seems. It's like they were all raised by Rush Limbaugh

    The video is short because it shows only what is necessary to make it's point. Why can't people view the video, and if they do come to the conclusion that it is does not prove it's point, simply state that? Why is it necessary for them to then to go on some tirade about the malicious intent of the author? If a person can present a sound argument stating why they feel the video is inadequate, the tearing of a new asshole really shouldn't be necessary.

    I don't agree that this video shows the strong arm intimidation of a much smaller man. It shows a conflict between two men. That's all. We don't know by simply the viewing the content of this video who started it.




    All good questions. I actually did some research on this and apparently race is not tracked in these events. To find out you need to go about collecting the data with a more unconventional route. Based on what I've read, yes, it is disproportionate. I find it a little shocking that a community of people can be this agitated over an injustice they claim to be suffering that anyone can think for even a minute that it's all made up. Wow. Really!? I hear this again and again. That to me seems like another example of an entire race of people who are minimized and not heard.


    No, you see I don't do that. Things are never that black and white. Just because I make an observation it does not immediately follow that I demonize. Even if the prejudice of the police officer influenced his decision to shoot I would be empathetic to his circumstances and seek out solutions rather than blame. At this point I have no more reason to believe this officer was an angry bigot than I have to believe that MB was a gentle giant and played no role in his own death. That's called being objective and I know that you are smart enough to get that


    Here is the thing though. It's not the black community that's doing it. It's a few people who have been drawn to this event so they can act out their rage. To blame the entirety of the "black community" is yet another example to me of the kind of dismissiveness that we have subjected them too throughout their history in this country. It's like looking at the Christians from Westborough and labeling what they do as the behaviors of the Christian community.
    I don't agree with a lot of what you've posted - your dismissal of what seems obvious to me is puzzling - however, different views and perspectives make life interesting. Have fun.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  9. #99
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    Re: Michael brown paid, full footage shows

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Conservative isn't a race.
    lol, whut?

    I don't recall having mentioned the word "Conservative" anywhere in my post.

  10. #100
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    Re: Michael brown paid, full footage shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    lol, whut?

    I don't recall having mentioned the word "Conservative" anywhere in my post.
    You said the whole "you people" thing was racist. Since the "people" referred to was Conservatives...

    You can't be racist against a group that isn't a race.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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