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Do you support legalizing gay marriage?[W:667]

Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

matchlight said:
The only Prop 8 case the Supreme Court decided, as far as I know, was Hollingsworth v. Perry. And my transcript of the oral arguments in that case do not show Justice Thomas breaking his longstanding practice of not asking questions at oral argument. So I have no idea what you mean when you talk about Thomas asking a "what harm" question that made the lawyer splutter, or constituted a defining moment. Please clarify.
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I don't know who asked the question, but the question came up. And the prop 8 supporters were unable to identify any harm caused by same-sex marriage.

It should be obvious that whether same-sex partners are included in state marriage laws is very much a question both of public policy and of law.

Thanks to strident minorities who want to bypass the democratic process and force their policy preference on millions of people whose laws they are not even subject to--and federal judges who are eager to help them do that--it is also being made into a constitutional issue.
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The same could have been said about any number of laws overturned on constitutional grounds. All matters of public law are subject to the constitution. Ballot measures do not magically bypass the constitution. There is an obvious constitutional question here that needs to be resolved. I don't care how many people voted for something unconstitutional, there's no reason to wait for the democratic process to reverse it.

Again, that is your opinion. Countless thousands of laws in this country, particularly criminal laws, advance moral beliefs held by majorities. And the ultimate basis for those moral beliefs is religious tenets. But the fact most people consider rape and robbery immoral, for example, hardly makes rape and robbery "100% religious" issues that have no place in public policy.
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Specific harm from rape and robbery can be identified. No religious basis is required. Nobody is saying moral opinions can't be a motivation, they're saying moral opinions can't be the only basis.

I don't believe that paean to radical individualism for a moment. We are members of a society, not just so many individuals in isolation. And all societies, including this one, have always shared--and enforced--certain moral convictions, in the form of laws. Laws necessarily regulate behavior, and he only way every individual can be left perfectly free to decide what acts are moral is to abandon all laws.
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Certain moral convictions are enforced. This does not justify all moral convictions.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

NOM tried to appeal the overturn in Oregon, appeal rejected.

Dear NOM,
We already settled this with Prop 8. You do not have the standing to appeal these cases, because same-sex marriage being legal doesn't affect you in any way. The Supreme Court said so. What, did you think the 9th circuit court of appeals was going to ignore that blindingly-obvious precedent? Are you people dense?

Sincerely,
Deuce
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Deuce said:
Can we vote on your right to do something instead? I want to vote up or down on your right to get married.
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Don't need it, it's already law.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Listening to the audio from the 7th circuit case that just came out is a freaking bloodbath. The judge tore apart every weak ass argument the anti-equality lawyer was making. The best was grilling him on the potential harm caused by same-sex marriage. The best answer that the guy had was "we don't know the consequences." Even when asked to speculate about any possible consequence, he couldn't name anything.

Anti-equality people can't even imagine a specific consequence of same-sex marriage.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Who ever criminalised it?
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Montecresto said:
Who ever criminalised it?
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Are you being pedantic or are you legitimately confused as to what the question is talking about?
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Deuce said:
Are you being pedantic or are you legitimately confused as to what the question is talking about?
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It was an open question, not directed at you or anyone, it just happened to follow you.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Deuce said:
Listening to the audio from the 7th circuit case that just came out is a freaking bloodbath. The judge tore apart every weak ass argument the anti-equality lawyer was making. The best was grilling him on the potential harm caused by same-sex marriage. The best answer that the guy had was "we don't know the consequences." Even when asked to speculate about any possible consequence, he couldn't name anything.

Anti-equality people can't even imagine a specific consequence of same-sex marriage.
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I think this is the part that many of us can't understand, or even comprehend why anti-SSM opponents are so visceral.

What harm is done?

I'm not gay, but it's the question 'why would I care' that keeps going through my head. I don't like dogs much, do I care if other people have them? Tattoo's, yep hate those as well, but nobody is forcing me to have one, so again, why would I care, it does me no harm that others have them, ugly as they are!.

Nobody is forcing you to turn gay, find a boyfriend and marry them, so why do you care? What harm does that inflict on you? So far (and I doubt they ever will) any of the anti SSM poster will ever answer that question directly

This from a legal standpoint is where is all unravels. As the cases in the Supreme Court all the way down the court system have shown, you can't prove harm to the existing institution of marriage. Even the poor lawyers having to argue this have a hard time with it.

This as I have said before. It comes down to religious belief and dogma, plus of course a healthy dose of homophobia.

Actually I would feel better if folks could just admit that, rather than constantly go down the legal route.

Then we could have what is their the real discussion; religion, sin and Hell

Just for once I would like someone to explain honestly why they object to something, which for many of us is simply baffling
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Tonic said:
I think this is the part that many of us can't understand, or even comprehend why anti-SSM opponents are so visceral.

What harm is done?

I'm not gay, but it's the question 'why would I care' that keeps going through my head. I don't like dogs much, do I care if other people have them? Tattoo's, yep hate those as well, but nobody is forcing me to have one, so again, why would I care, it does me no harm that others have them, ugly as they are!.

Nobody is forcing you to turn gay, find a boyfriend and marry them, so why do you care? What harm does that inflict on you? So far (and I doubt they ever will) any of the anti SSM poster will ever answer that question directly

This from a legal standpoint is where is all unravels. As the cases in the Supreme Court all the way down the court system have shown, you can't prove harm to the existing institution of marriage. Even the poor lawyers having to argue this have a hard time with it.

This as I have said before. It comes down to religious belief and dogma, plus of course a healthy dose of homophobia.

Actually I would feel better if folks could just admit that, rather than constantly go down the legal route.

Then we could have what is their the real discussion; religion, sin and Hell

Just for once I would like someone to explain honestly why they object to something, which for many of us is simply baffling
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Yep! Divorce is what does harm to the institution of marriage.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Montecresto said:
Yep! Divorce is what does harm to the institution of marriage.
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Ironically of course, I was listening to NPR a couple of weeks ago. There was segment on the issue of gay divorce...Seems nobody thought about that!

I guess Straights & Gays ain't that different after all!

...and having been divorced twice, I can tell you there may be many a gay couple wishing this whole marriage thingy, straight or gay had never been invented in the first place!
 
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Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Montecresto said:
Yep! Divorce is what does harm to the institution of marriage.
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Divorce causes harm to one particular marriage. I'm not convinced it has any impact on my life.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Tonic said:
Ironically of course, I was listening to NPR a couple of weeks ago. There was segment on the issue of gay divorce...Seems nobody thought about that!

I guess Straights & Gays ain't that different after all!

...and having been divorced twice, I can tell you there may be many a gay couple wishing this whole marriage thingy, straight or gay had never been invented in the first place!
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Why would there be a need to think about that? "Gay divorce" isn't a thing. There's just "divorce."
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Deuce said:
Divorce causes harm to one particular marriage. I'm not convinced it has any impact on my life.
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Well just because you're unaware of it.....................when two people get divorced it effects usually many others. And divorce doesn't harm just one marriage, with 50% of marriages ending in divorce, the institution suffers.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Montecresto said:
It was an open question, not directed at you or anyone, it just happened to follow you.
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I'm aware, and my question stands.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Montecresto said:
Well just because you're unaware of it.....................when two people get divorced it effects usually many others. And divorce doesn't harm just one marriage, with 50% of marriages ending in divorce, the institution suffers.
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Divorce affects the people involved, yes. But why does that affect the institution? My marriage isn't harmed when someone else gets divorced. My family isn't harmed.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Deuce said:
Divorce affects the people involved, yes. But why does that affect the institution? My marriage isn't harmed when someone else gets divorced. My family isn't harmed.
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Oh I see. Well that seems selfish enough. It's not an institutional problem because you've never been effected by it.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Deuce said:
Why would there be a need to think about that? "Gay divorce" isn't a thing. There's just "divorce."
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Well, apparently there is an issue with the logistics of it all which doesn't surprise me in the least given that the government is involved.

It gets more complicated it appears when folks have married in on state then try to divorce in another.

Maybe this is the direction to go; get rid of divorce altogether, that should satisfy the social conservatives no end....until of course they get caught in bed with a transexual hooker, banging their intern assistant, hooking up with a male boyfriend...shall I go on, begging for forgiveness on television LOL
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Gringo allstar said:
Huh??? Surely you jest. I mean if you disagree with it that's your opinion but to say the bible doesnt say anything against homosexuality is just dishonest.
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It doesn't.

The handful of the typical 'gay-bashing' verses in their original historical cultural contexts and original languages are about:

- Sacred male temple prostitutes worshipping ancient Canaanite fertility gods. eg Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 (Nothing at all to do with gay men, especially those in loving relationships)

- Heterosexual men threatening to rape male strangers. eg Genesis 19 and Judges 19 (Nothing at all to do with gay men, especially those in loving relationships). Male rape throughout history has mostly been about heterosexual men dominating and humiliating other men by treating them like they would a woman.

-Heterosexual men having ritual vaginal then anal sex with women and then anal sex with other men to worship Greek fertility gods in 1st century Corinthian pagan temples. eg Romans 1:26-27 (Nothing at all to do with gay men, especially those in loving relationships).

*Sex acts between two women are not mentioned at all. (please don't bother quoting Romans 1:26 before reading what Augustine and several other early church fathers had to say about it. ie that the women were having anal sex with the men.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Ceist said:
It doesn't.

The handful of the typical 'gay-bashing' verses in their original historical cultural contexts and original languages are about:

- Sacred male temple prostitutes worshipping ancient Canaanite fertility gods. eg Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 (Nothing at all to do with gay men, especially those in loving relationships)

- Heterosexual men threatening to rape male strangers. eg Genesis 19 and Judges 19 (Nothing at all to do with gay men, especially those in loving relationships). Male rape throughout history has mostly been about heterosexual men dominating and humiliating other men by treating them like they would a woman.

-Heterosexual men having ritual vaginal then anal sex with women and then anal sex with other men to worship Greek fertility gods in 1st century Corinthian pagan temples. eg Romans 1:26-27 (Nothing at all to do with gay men, especially those in loving relationships).

*Sex acts between two women are not mentioned at all. (please don't bother quoting Romans 1:26 before reading what Augustine and several other early church fathers had to say about it. ie that the women were having anal sex with the men.
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Wow, gotta say you know your Bible

I'm waiting for 'Bible for Dummies' to get published. I think that will more likely fit my 'attention of a fruit fly' personality
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

CaptainCourtesy said:
No, just the OT. I'm Jewish, so I do not deal with the NT. I've posted this many times here, so I will again. Reposted with permission from my personal hero:
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I agree. I would also add more evidence that Leviticus 18:22 is most likely referring to male temple prostitutes who worshiped pagan gods like Molech:


After the command not to give your offspring over to Molech in verse 18:21, they are being reminded who is God -and not to worship other gods like Molech.

"I am the Lord" - Meaning "I, not Molech, am the Lord.

Molech is associated in several places in the OT with giving over sons and daughters to be male and female temple prostitutes.

Look up references to Molech in the OT to see the connection to shrine prostitutes HERE: Blue Letter Bible .

Read a brief summary of the historical and cultural context of ancient Canaan:

Canaanite culture and religion

It's very obvious to me what the texts are referring to in Leviticus 18:21, 22, 23 and 24:

Here is how it flows:

  • Leviticus 18:21 was about not giving sons and daughters over to worship of Molech

  • Leviticus 18:22 was specifically about male temple prostitutes (qadesh).

  • Leviticus 18:23 was specifically about female temple prostitutes (qadesha) -(who also had anal sex with men as well as with animals to worship the gods)

  • Leviticus 18:24 was about warning that other nations (Egypt and Canaan) became defiled by worshipping other gods so don't follow their practices.


There are more than half a dozen verses in the OT about not giving over sons and daughters to be temple or cult prostitutes, yet never again outside Leviticus does it state that men should not lie with a male and women should not lie with an animal.

eg Deut 23:17: "None of the daughters of Israel shall be a cult prostitute (6948), nor shall any of the sons of Israel be a cult (6945) prostitute.



Strongs 6945: qadesh - male temple prostitute


Strongs 6948: qĕdeshah - female temple prostitute.


(Strong's Number H6945 matches the Hebrew קָדֵשׁ (qadesh), which occurs 23 times in 9 verses in the Hebrew concordance)

In Leviticus 20:13 the context is also Molech worship.

BLB - Lev 20: Law of Moses - Leviticus 20 (Blue Letter Bible: NASB - New American Standard Bible)


To me, it's so obvious that Lev 18:22 and 20:13 are references to male temple prostitutes when you follow simple honest Biblical hermeneutics. That's not a description of homosexuality or homosexuals or 21st century gay men.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Logicman said:
When you can bust the resurrection then your knee-jerk 'fiction' claims might start to take on some merit. Until then it's just more hot air.
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You know when you blow up a balloon really big and you try to tie it off with a knot and it slips out of your hands and shoots wildly all over the room making long farting raspberry noises?

Your hysterical ranting on this topic has as much meaning as that.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Kobie said:
I find it funny, this notion that the guy who refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding, citing his objection to homosexual marriage, is the one being discriminated against, as opposed to, say, the gay couple getting married. Absolutely boggles my mind, the logical hoops through which some Christians will leap in order to find martyrs.
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The baker proved that his 'devoutly held religious beliefs' about the 'sanctity of marriage' were pure hogwash when he agreed to bake a wedding cake for 2 dogs.
 
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