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Do you support legalizing gay marriage?[W:667]

Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

WCH said:
So says the tenth.
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The claim it is a 10th has been repeatedly refuted because it allows some states to discriminate...while other states are participating in the U.S. Constitution, which mandates equality.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Removable Mind said:
The claim it is a 10th has been repeatedly refuted because it allows some states to discriminate...while other states are participating in the U.S. Constitution, which mandates equality.
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Hey you're the one throwing 'constitutional' around.

Or are you just making **** up?
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Papa bull said:
You can always think up some sort of alternative "reasoning" for bestiality laws that doesn't have anything to do with "it's icky", but I think we both know the real reason for these laws is because bestiality is disgusting and unnatural. Feel free to deny that if it suits your agenda, though.
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The reason is because it is cruel to have sex with other animals who don't know any better. Just because you cannot get beyond "it's icky" doesn't mean the rest of us cannot see more rational reasons for why people shouldn't and shouldn't be allowed to do it.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

WCH said:
Hey you're the one throwing 'constitutional' around.

Or are you just making **** up?
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Uh...how have I made **** up?
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Lursa said:
I didnt say everyone....but the "fact" that that's the way those states vote indicates the majority of their voter base...does it not?

Um...do you know what facts are? I'm starting to think this whole line of discussion would have been shorter if you were clear on that.
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I know what facts are. I'm not sure that you do. First off, the red state / blue state nonsense is completely absurd when generalizing about what small groups of people do. Secondly, to assert that bestiality being legal is a "red state thing" just shows ignorance that's piled on top of thinking that everyone in red states is conservative - or that some small deviant group like animal lovers would mostly be conservative if in a "red state". That just shows a pitiful ignorance of statistical logic. Here are the states where bestiality is not illegal:

Alabama, Connecticut, Hawaii, Kentucky, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, Texas, Vermont, West Virginia, Wyoming and the District of Columbia. Lots of HARDCORE blue states in that list.

And now with this, we see that the fact that animals can't consent has ZIP ZERO NADA to do with the fact that it's illegal. It's illegal because it's unnatural and disgusting and people in 33 states won't tolerate it. I expect liberals will push harder to get more states to legalize it, though. Perversions are part of the liberal agenda.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Phoenix said:
Very good point and completely (although not exclusively) true. This however has nothing to do with whether gay marriage should be legal.
Gay marriage should be legal because when two opposite sex people choose to engage in a relationship they receive certain protections and benefits under the law. Two same sex persons making the same choice should be exactly protected. The Bill of Rights guarantees this.
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I would argue that the constitution guarantees equal protection. Marriage is a legal contract and so therefore if a man and woman can enter into a contract that provides them certain legal privileges and protections (and also obligations) then two men must be allowed to enter into a contract with the same privileges, protections and obligations.

As a partnered gay man, I still can't for the life of me figure out why in the hell people care what that contract is called. You can call it marriage, civil union, or XYZ relationship contract. I could not care less what you call it, but I should be provided with the same protections if I want them (which I do not).
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

roguenuke said:
The reason is because it is cruel to have sex with other animals who don't know any better. Just because you cannot get beyond "it's icky" doesn't mean the rest of us cannot see more rational reasons for why people shouldn't and shouldn't be allowed to do it.
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It's only illegal in 33 states. Some states are more tolerant of perversion than others are, I guess. Animal cruelty is a red herring that has nothing to do with the laws against bestiality. Where it's illegal, it's illegal because people think it's too disgusting and unnatural to be allowed.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Removable Mind said:
Uh...how have I made **** up?
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"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

Who voted against SSM in Texas? The People!
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Papa bull said:
I know what facts are. I'm not sure that you do. First off, the red state / blue state nonsense is completely absurd when generalizing about what small groups of people do. Secondly, to assert that bestiality being legal is a "red state thing" just shows ignorance that's piled on top of thinking that everyone in red states is conservative - or that some small deviant group like animal lovers would mostly be conservative if in a "red state". That just shows a pitiful ignorance of statistical logic. Here are the states where bestiality is not illegal:

Alabama, Connecticut, Hawaii, Kentucky, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, Texas, Vermont, West Virginia, Wyoming and the District of Columbia. Lots of HARDCORE blue states in that list.

And now with this, we see that the fact that animals can't consent has ZIP ZERO NADA to do with the fact that it's illegal. It's illegal because it's unnatural and disgusting and people in 33 states won't tolerate it. I expect liberals will push harder to get more states to legalize it, though. Perversions are part of the liberal agenda.
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*sigh* More opinion dressed up as fact. We'll get you a dictionary.

Lursa said:
I didnt say everyone....but the "fact" that that's the way those states vote indicates the majority of their voter base...does it not?

Um...do you know what facts are? I'm starting to think this whole line of discussion would have been shorter if you were clear on that.
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Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

WCH said:
Hey you're the one throwing 'constitutional' around.

Or are you just making **** up?
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DID YOU READ my post #436?


Texas' Constitutional Amendment was rightfully declared UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Why?

Judge Garcia echoed his colleagues Wednesday with respect to Texas, saying that "equal treatment of all individuals under the law is not merely an aspiration it is a constitutional mandate."

"(The Texas law) is unconstitutional because, without a rational relationship to a legitimate governmental purpose, it denies same-sex couples the benefits, dignity and value of celebrating marriage and having their out-of-state marriage recognized," the judge said.

In his ruling, Garcia raised notable arguments from some supporters of same-sex marriage bans: that allowing such unions would hurt children raised in them, that it would stifle procreation and that it "could lead to the recognition of bigamy, incest, pedophilia and group marriage."

The judge then shot down the defense's case. "Procreation is not and has never been a qualification for marriage" and "tradition, alone, cannot form a rational basis for a law."
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My comment was based on the Judge's statement noted in RED. This is one reason why the 10th is not a valid argument.


Texas ban on same-sex marriage struck down - CNN.com
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

year2late said:
Ding ding ding we have a winner.

Specifically polling only a group of 100 people.....how is that random. Oh yeah, because this month they polled Karl and Steve at NPs group instead of Mike and Mark.
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In fact, shouldn't it be evened out if we're going to conduct polling this way now? If you poll 100 old military vets, shouldn't you also poll 100 young students studying something like "Liberal Arts"? Or perhaps a 100 young students from some liberal colleges such as Warren Wilson College, Sarah Lawrence College, or Oberlin College?
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

WCH said:
Maybe the people should indict the judge. Isn't that how things are done today?
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THE JUDGE? All of the judges who have overturned unconstitutional laws and amendments are saying the same things. His statements merely echoed other Federal Judges decisions regarding the constitutionality of bans on same sex marriage.

Neither Federal or State governments should have the right to define marriage. There is zero logical reason(s) for banning same sex marriage. Banning SSM is strictly a religious based tenet.

In this country...you have the right to NOT MARRY a person of your same sex. Wonderful, huh?

I don't care if the rancher across the road wants to marry his prize heifer. They'll have damn ugly kids. But that's none of my business.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

kamikaze483 said:
I would argue that the constitution guarantees equal protection. Marriage is a legal contract and so therefore if a man and woman can enter into a contract that provides them certain legal privileges and protections (and also obligations) then two men must be allowed to enter into a contract with the same privileges, protections and obligations.

As a partnered gay man, I still can't for the life of me figure out why in the hell people care what that contract is called. You can call it marriage, civil union, or XYZ relationship contract. I could not care less what you call it, but I should be provided with the same protections if I want them (which I do not).
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Aren't we making the same point.
but as an aside why wouldn't you want the same protections?
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Removable Mind said:
DID YOU READ my post #436?




My comment was based on the Judge's statement noted in RED. This is one reason why the 10th is not a valid argument.


Texas ban on same-sex marriage struck down - CNN.com
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There's no way in Hell the Judge met all these requirements for the injunction.

That there is a substantial likelihood of success on the merits of the case,
That they face a substantial threat of irreparable damage or injury if the injunction is not granted,
That the balance of harms weighs in favor of the party seeking the preliminary injunction
That the grant of an injunction would serve the public interest.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

WCH said:
There's no way in Hell the Judge met all these requirements for the injunction.

That there is a substantial likelihood of success on the merits of the case,
That they face a substantial threat of irreparable damage or injury if the injunction is not granted,
That the balance of harms weighs in favor of the party seeking the preliminary injunction
That the grant of an injunction would serve the public interest.
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Where did you pull this list from?
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Lursa said:
*sigh* More opinion dressed up as fact. We'll get you a dictionary.
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Mixture of fact and opinion. The states where it's legal are a fact. And many are HARDCORE BLUE STATES. Also a fact. I'm thinking you're fact-challenged, my friend.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Anthony60 said:
I think this is a good point that is overlooked, mostly because of PC reasons and that the gay marriage crowd doesn't want to face it. People mate to procreate, and to keep the species going.
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No, we don't. Most sex is done to form emotional bonds, not procreation. In fact, many humans go out of their way to have sex that won't result in procreation. In our 7 years of marriage and longer being in a sexual relationship, my husband and I have only not taken precautions against getting pregnant around 10 times (most of which took place during a single month), and have ended up pregnant twice. Had either of us been unable to procreate, we would still be together in an intimate relationship. Humans do not "mate to procreate", especially not mainly. Most human mating takes place for the purpose of bonding, not procreation.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Anthony60 said:
Perhaps I didn't word it well enough. Heterosexual sex is essential to the continuation of the species. Doesn't mean all people must reproduce, but a significant number must to continue the species. Homosexual sex? Could disappear tomorrow forever, would not hurt the species at all, it would go on without missing a beat. So, are they the same? Certainly not. Is a homsexual union the same as a heterosexual marriage? Again, no.
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No actually heterosexual sex is not essential to the continuation of our species. We have IVF, sperm donation, egg donation, and surrogacy. We only need men and women. We don't need those men and women to be in sexual relationships with each other to continue the species. In fact, they can even have sex with each other without being in an intimate relationship and have a child and go back to a different, same sex relationship after and we'd be fine.

In reality, this has absolutely nothing to do with same sex marriage or homosexuality because same sex couples having sex, being in intimate relationships, or being legally allowed to marry has no negative affect on procreation rates.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Anthony60 said:
And marriage is between a man and a woman, because it is not the same as a gay union.
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Wrong. There are currently millions of people of the same sex who are married. That proves you wrong.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Papa bull said:
It's only illegal in 33 states. Some states are more tolerant of perversion than others are, I guess. Animal cruelty is a red herring that has nothing to do with the laws against bestiality. Where it's illegal, it's illegal because people think it's too disgusting and unnatural to be allowed.
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Some states simply have different laws than others. The people in those states do not consider it wrong (although I'm willing to bet there are some sort of laws that cover it in those states). The key to why those states can have that difference in opinion though in this matter is because animals do not have rights under the Constitution. Animals cannot challenge a law that doesn't protect them from abuse.

Humans cannot marry animals because animals cannot sign the marriage contract (a legal requirement), cannot fulfill the necessary requirements of taking on certain responsibilities that come with being a person's legal spouse, and they are not considered legal kin to anyone in any form. If you don't like these facts, then fight to change them. I wouldn't hold my breath though. You have very little case.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

WCH said:
This is what the judge ordered in the case against Texas,

Preliminary injunction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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There's no way in Hell the Judge met all these requirements for the injunction.

That there is a substantial likelihood of success on the merits of the case,
That they face a substantial threat of irreparable damage or injury if the injunction is not granted,
That the balance of harms weighs in favor of the party seeking the preliminary injunction
That the grant of an injunction would serve the public interest.
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...........................

Garcia issued a preliminary injunction on the state's ban, citing Supreme Court precedent. However, Garcia issued a stay on his order, meaning the ban will remain in effect pending appeal.

“Today’s court decision is not made in defiance of the great people of Texas or the Texas Legislature, but in compliance with the U.S. Constitution and Supreme Court precedent,” Garcia wrote in the order. “Without a rational relation to a legitimate governmental purpose, state-imposed inequality can find no refuge in our U.S. Constitution.”
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The "balance of harms" refers to the threatened injury to the party seeking the preliminary injunction as compared to the harm that the other party may suffer from the injunction.

The United States Supreme Court revisited the requirements for obtaining a preliminary injunction in Winter v. NRDiC, Inc., 555 U.S. 7 (2008).[1] The Court changed one requirement.

"A plaintiff seeking a preliminary injunction must establish that he is likely to succeed on the merits, that he is likely to suffer irreparable harm in the absence of preliminary relief, that the balance of equities tips in his favor, and that an injunction is in the public interest."
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Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Papa bull said:
Mixture of fact and opinion. The states where it's legal are a fact. And many are HARDCORE BLUE STATES. Also a fact. I'm thinking you're fact-challenged, my friend.
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You mean like how you keep declaring bestiality is only illlegal because it's unnatural and disgusting?

:lamo

C'mon....you continue to embarrass yourself here by such an obvious...and failed...attempt at actually continuing the discussion on any supportable grounds at all.
 
Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

Phoenix said:
Aren't we making the same point.
but as an aside why wouldn't you want the same protections?
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Yes. I think I replied to the wrong quote. My partner and I sat down and made a list a while back of what benefits marriage would offer and what benefits we would each have to give up in order to be married. Strictly from a legal standpoint, a marriage license provided us with exactly nothing that we did not already have.

On the other hand, if we were married legally, we would have two choices at tax time: married filing jointly or married filing separately. We save many thousands of dollars each year by not combining our income. Two single people (who pool their money) have a lot more money left over after taxes than two people who are married filing separately.

Everything else has been done via estate planning. We have wills, living trusts, and powers of attorney that allow my partner to be my next of kin and inherit all of my money and make decisions for me in the event of my incapacity (and vice versa).

In our situation it just doesn't make sense.
 
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