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Thread: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?[W:667]

  1. #1041
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    Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Is that what you are pretending to be here for?
    You're the guy who now repeatedly spams these threads with ridiculous premises like this one.

    I've given you constitutional reasoning to overturn same sex marriage bans. I've given you links to courts who applied strict scrutiny in a same sex marriage case. You've claimed to have a rebuttal, but refuse to actually give it.

    Balls in your court dude.
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    And yet laws often subject similarly situated people to wildly disparate treatment without violating the Equal Protection Clause. When it comes to state economic regulations, that is more the rule than the exception. How the guarantee of equal protection applies, how it applies to various groups, and in what context, is a complex area of constitutional law.
    Absolutely, just as there are laws that limit speech such as slander. The Equal Protection Clause is not a universal statement that the government cannot discriminate. The government absolutely CAN discriminate, however it's discrimination must meet certian muster depending on who it's discriminating against, why it's discriminating, and to what end it's discriminating.

    GENDER discrimination however has a long held standing within the legal system as to the criteria applied to it via the EPC

    From your use of the language of the "intermediate" standard of review the Court has used in sex discrimination cases, it sounds like you would apply that standard to marriage laws that exclude same-sex couples.
    You are correct in that I was using the "intermediate" standard of review, as historically has been the case as it relates to gender discrimination.

    The main problem I see with that approach is that these laws don't discriminate against anyone on the basis of sex. They no more allow two men to marry each other than they allow two women to marry each other.
    This is patentedly untrue. It absolutely does discriminate against someone on the basis of their sex/gender.

    A man is legally able to marry a woman.

    A woman is not legally able to marry a woman.

    A man, UNDER THE LAW, has the ability to do something that a woman does not do.

    For that to be constitutional it would need to be substantially related to serving an important state interest. Same goes for the fact that a woman, under the law, has the ability to do something that a man does not in regards to marrying a man.

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    Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    You're the guy who now repeatedly spams these threads with ridiculous premises like this one.

    I've given you constitutional reasoning to overturn same sex marriage bans. I've given you links to courts who applied strict scrutiny in a same sex marriage case. You've claimed to have a rebuttal, but refuse to actually give it.

    Balls in your court dude.
    The spam and ridiculous premises I have seen on these threads are your own. You haven't even the faintest grasp of the constitutional issues involved, as you've made painfully clear several times. You haven't offered any constitutional reasoning worth the name. I assume that's not because you're refusing to, but simply because you have none to offer. And I don't care that a federal appeals court has seen fit to declare a fundamental right to same-sex marriage.

    Why don't you tell us all why that decision is so important to anyone outside the states in that jurisdiction? Please explain why, when the Court has so strongly shied away from taking the fundamental rights/strict scrutiny path on this subject, Anthony Kennedy will feel obliged to follow a lower federal court down it. Tell us why Kennedy, as Justice Scalia pointed out in his Lawrence dissent, even though he claimed to be overruling Bowers v. Hardwick, was so careful to leave intact Bowers' central holding: That there is no fundamental right to homosexual sodomy.

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    Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Absolutely, just as there are laws that limit speech such as slander. The Equal Protection Clause is not a universal statement that the government cannot discriminate. The government absolutely CAN discriminate, however it's discrimination must meet certian muster depending on who it's discriminating against, why it's discriminating, and to what end it's discriminating.

    GENDER discrimination however has a long held standing within the legal system as to the criteria applied to it via the EPC



    You are correct in that I was using the "intermediate" standard of review, as historically has been the case as it relates to gender discrimination.



    This is patentedly untrue. It absolutely does discriminate against someone on the basis of their sex/gender.

    A man is legally able to marry a woman.

    A woman is not legally able to marry a woman.

    A man, UNDER THE LAW, has the ability to do something that a woman does not do.

    For that to be constitutional it would need to be substantially related to serving an important state interest. Same goes for the fact that a woman, under the law, has the ability to do something that a man does not in regards to marrying a man.
    Rather than debate this point with you any further, I'll just note that I don't know of anyplace in the Supreme Court's three "gay" decisions since Bowers v. Hardwick in 1986--Romer v. Evans, Lawrence v. Texas, or U.S. v. Windsor--where it has shown even the slightest inclination to take up the argument you're making. And that would be because no party had chosen to make that argument in its briefs. If it had the merit you seem to think it has, it's a little surprising all those extremely able lawyers flat missed it in cases claiming discrimination against homosexuals.

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    Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Trust me, I'm not worried personally. After all, we're simply having a debate, not a trial here. by debating, perhaps readers will learn something they didn't know before or seek out additional knowledge.

    Jesus didn't stay out of people's lives, he spent most of his time bringing the word of his Father to the masses.

    When in the company of a woman accused of adultery (a crime punishable by stoning) he said 'Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again.'" (John 8:1-11)

    This is what I wish for those who lead a life of sin. In the process, it helps me recognize my own sin and how to deal with it.
    I never said that he stayed out of people's lives. I said that he preached his word, talked to people, try to persuade them, but in the end he left the people to make their own decisions and never attempted to get anything he preached placed into law. You on the other hand want your particular set or morality placed into law despite that others follow other religions that do not have such restrictions. Do you feel that all businesses should be closed on Sunday's?
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    Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Sure, good things have come from the Progressive movement. In the process, we have become slaves to big government.

    The Progressive Movement and the Transformation of American Politics
    You do realize you can become a slave to small government right?

    And your notion of "slavery" is pretty messed up.
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    Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    No you don't have to believe but, if you did to would help the cause.
    So if I don't have to believe, why do you seem so insistent that we needs laws or restrictions to ensure I do conform to your beliefs? Sometimes people are conflicted with the notions of individuality and religious conformity.

    What someone choses to believe, what they chose to do in their bedroom are their concerns, and theirs alone. We should focus on our eternal souls, nobody elses

    The folks that seem to believe that laws, restrictions and some sort of 'Talibanesque' moral police are the answer to 'collective salvation' go against everything our founding fathers wanted.

    Freedom and Liberty, maybe some people need to re-access what those words mean
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    Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

    >


    For anyone interested here are the oral arguments from todays 7th Curcuit Court cases on SSCM.


    http://media.ca7.uscourts.gov/sound/...08_26_2014.mp3

    http://media.ca7.uscourts.gov/sound/...08_26_2014.mp3



    While there is no guarantee, I'd give it about an 85% chance that the 7th will be joining the 10th and 4th Circuit courts in upholding the ruling.



    >>>>

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    Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    >


    For anyone interested here are the oral arguments from todays 7th Curcuit Court cases on SSCM.


    http://media.ca7.uscourts.gov/sound/...08_26_2014.mp3

    http://media.ca7.uscourts.gov/sound/...08_26_2014.mp3



    While there is no guarantee, I'd give it about an 85% chance that the 7th will be joining the 10th and 4th Circuit courts in upholding the ruling.



    >>>>
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    Re: Do you support legalizing gay marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Supreme Court's three "gay" decisions
    Well there's your issue and what you're missing. Instead of actually listening and addressing what I'm actually saying you're instead stereotyping and projecting an argument onto me.

    Homosexuality has ZERO to do with my argument. Nothing that I stated has anything to do with homosexual rights under the law. Citing "gay" decisions is irrelevant, because my argument is not based nor connected to homosexuality at all...it's connected to GENDER. If you want cases to cite it'd be ones involving gender.

    Whether or not others have made the argument is irrelevant to whether or not I believe it to be an issue. Additionally, you fall into a fallacy of assuming that simply because no briefs have taken this stance automatically means it's because it has no merit. There alternative explanations, one simple one that immediately comes to mind....homosexual activist groups aimed at expanding equal rights for homosexuals under the law, as opposed to simply caring about a single solitary issue in relation to same sex marriage would be unlikely to push from this angle because it explicitly does not move forward the attempt to categorize homosexuals as a significant classification under the EPC. The Marriage cases are probably the best chance for these activists to achieve such a goal, and thus giving up on that for a "simpler" fix would probably not be very attractive of an option.

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