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Thread: Christian Leader: ISIS is Beheading Children[W:131]

  1. #131
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    Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

    Moderator's Warning:
    Christian Leader:  ISIS is Beheading Children[W:131]There are several posts that are bordering on being infracted. Its time to watch your P's and Q's ladies and gents. Just to note, I will be going through the thread and infracting those that need it despite this in-thread.
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  2. #132
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    Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I am always fascinated by the absurd reasoning by some of the hardcore right wingers when it comes to foreign policy. The Bush Administration's decision to go into Iraq was quite possibly the biggest foreign policy mistake in the history of the United States. Yet the mess today is all the fault of the rather inept president we have in office now? The fact is, none of this would have happened, including the mess in Syria, the rise of Iran, or the civil war and radicalization of Iraq had we continued with the policy of containment of Iraq put in place by Bush Sr, and carried on through the Clinton Administration. We would all be better off if the dictator Saddam was still running Iraq. There would be no ISIS, no Al Qaeda Iraq, no developing a nuke in Iran, no civil war in Syria….

    I swear, some of you right wingers would throw a stick of dynamite into an outhouse and then bitch about their being sh*t everywhere afterwards.
    I certainly agree that the Iraq adventure was a serious mistake. I agree that we and Iraq would be better of with Saddam still in power. But you do need to understand how Obama's policy has affected things. The prudent thing for him to do (despite the actions of his predecessors) would have been to reduce our military presence in Iraq, not eliminate it. I agree that ISIS wouldn't be a problem if Saddam were in power. I also think it would not be a problem if we had not left. If a president doesn't like what his predecessors did he still needs to do what is best for the country, like it or not. There is plenty of incompetence to go around, I'm afraid.

  3. #133
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    Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    I certainly agree that the Iraq adventure was a serious mistake. I agree that we and Iraq would be better of with Saddam still in power. But you do need to understand how Obama's policy has affected things. The prudent thing for him to do (despite the actions of his predecessors) would have been to reduce our military presence in Iraq, not eliminate it. I agree that ISIS wouldn't be a problem if Saddam were in power. I also think it would not be a problem if we had not left. If a president doesn't like what his predecessors did he still needs to do what is best for the country, like it or not. There is plenty of incompetence to go around, I'm afraid.
    They didn't want us there. I agree that a president has to deal with what his predecessors left for him, and I think that Obama has been a mediocre president at best in terms of foreign policy at a time when we needed a lot better, but the fact is, unless we want to keep 50,000 troops over there indefinitely, at the cost of 50 billion a year or so, then the country was going to fall apart. The best thing we could do at this point would be to figure out how we could prop up some kind of strong man brutal dictator again in Iraq. How old are Saddam's grandsons now?
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    Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    no war needed. just a couple minor league ICBMs in the right place

    problem solved
    Of course, those would also kill the non-ISIS people that we ostensibly would like to protect.
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    Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    The fact is, none of this would have happened, including the mess in Syria, the rise of Iran, or the civil war and radicalization of Iraq had we continued with the policy of containment of Iraq put in place by Bush Sr, and carried on through the Clinton Administration. We would all be better off if the dictator Saddam was still running Iraq. There would be no ISIS, no Al Qaeda Iraq, no developing a nuke in Iran, no civil war in Syria….
    What? No.
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    Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Lol !

    6 years in and " Bush owns it " ?? Wow...

    Isis wasn't marching around Iraq killing Christians and threatening Genocide when Bush was in office.
    Such an interesting "objection" coming from a guy that routinely blames Clinton (and Carter) for the 2008 economic melt down. ... but, unlike the argument you make there that the CRA was responsible for the meltdown (dubious, at best).... in the case of Bush, there is a specific action that he advocated, lobbied for and executed that drastically changed the political environment in Iraq and planted not only the seeds of ISIS, but fertilized the garden as well.

    Prior to 2003, Iraq was a secure country. There was no sectarian violence. We had a ruthless dictator that kept the "peace". That was despite the fact that Iraq was not even a real country, but a collection of disparate ethnic groups (that fundamentally hated each other), thrown together under some League of Nations edict (from 1920). Of course, our man George and his band of ignorant (or maybe well intentioned, but naive) Neocons had this idea that Iraq just wanted to be free.... so they invaded. Of course, the bull in the china shop had no plan for the after toppling, they just thought everyone would dance in the streets. Instead, they ignorantly began the "de-baathification" of Iraq, which cleansed the Iraq government and military of Sunnis, replacing them with Shia. In essence, we played on group over another. This set the seed for sectarian violence, which ensued in Iraq from much to the next 11 years...... and created fertile soil for what is now Isis.

    Had we not invaded Iraq, we would not have an Isis problem (and our debt would be about 4-6T less). George Bush broke it; he owns it.

    Curiously, on this same day. the Jim Brady death was ruled a murder. It seems that some event of 33 years ago has been blamed for his death of last week. While I personally find that a bit far fetched, it does well illustrate the notion that one person can (and often is) held accountable for the long-term consequences of a single decision or action. Bush screwed up Iraq... he gets the blame until its fixed. Now, I don't completely exonerate Obama here, he gets some blame for misplaying a card from the bad hand he was dealt, but save for George Bush, we are not talking about ISIS today.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 08-09-14 at 10:46 PM.

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    Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Oh, I see. The Bush Administration was gonna negotiate for them to stay. When Obama took credit for pulling them out, he was taking credit for something the Bush Administration already did, but now that things have gone (predictably) bad there, he wuzgonna change his mind.

    We used to say that two wuzgonnas and a dime would get you a cup of coffee, but that's out of date. Now, two wuzgonnas and five bucks will get you a latte grande mocha goodie with fru frus on top. Times change.

    The major mistake in Iraq was going there to begin with. After that, I'm not sure that there was any avoiding the mess that it has become.
    It's like having one coach sign their star player to a 5 year contract and in year 5 a the new coach lets the star player leave the team without making an offer... and then blaming the previous coach for only signing a 5 year deal.

    SOFAs always have an expiration because politically it's supposed to look like a temporary thing, and gives both sides a set time for negotiations. Obama never bothered even though his military advisers wanted 20,000+ soldiers in Iraq.
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    Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

    Well whoever is at fault ISIS is doing in a hurry what Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, Al Queda, etc. were doing more slowly.

    The left claims to protect endangered species but the most endangered species in the world today are the Christians of the Middle East.
    Karim couldn't help expressing bitterness about this. "I don't see any attention from the rest of the world," he said. "In one day, they killed more than two thousand Yazidi in Sinjar, and the whole world says, 'Save Gaza, save Gaza.' "
    ISIS, the Yazidis, Kurdistan, and the Threat of Massacres in Iraq

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    Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Well whoever is at fault ISIS is doing in a hurry what Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, Al Queda, etc. were doing more slowly.

    The left claims to protect endangered species but the most endangered species in the world today are the Christians of the Middle East.


    ISIS, the Yazidis, Kurdistan, and the Threat of Massacres in Iraq
    That does not fit the narrative.

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    Re: ISIS Beheading and Crucifying Christians in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric7216 View Post
    Every year I get the NYTimes World Almanac with data, usually from UN sources, on such stuff. Generally, the death rate per 1000 ranged from 8.0 to 14.5 from 1980 to 2002 and dropped to 5.2, 5.1, 4.9 from the start of the war. A drop of 3 points in a country of 25 million would mean 75,000 lives saved a year. Infant mortality rates climbed from 18 to 64 per 1000 during the Saddam years and is currently c. 47. Population in 2002 was 22 million. I did not attribute the drop in death rate to infant mortality-it was just one piece of a complex puzzle. Saddam was killing his own people, engaging in wars, and mismanaging health care (made worse by UN sanctions due to the suspected WMD stuff). Someone needs to understand the increase in population unequalled by almost all countries despite being at war from 2003 to 2008.

    It is important to look at data from the same sources consistently.

    And most of the 100,000 plus Iraqis who died were killed by other Iraqis is a civil war that the allied forces were trying to limit.
    iCasualties | Operation Iraqi Freedom | Iraq

    If only the media had reported this stuff honestly Obama probably would not have made such errors in judgment. Instead we are left with a situation equivalent to the breakup of Yugoslavia and we should have expected this.
    Assuming your figures are accurate, how could that possibly translate into a population growth of nearly 1/3?
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