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Thread: Pregnant Women Warned: Consent to Surgical Birth or Else

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    Re: Pregnant Women Warned: Consent to Surgical Birth or Else

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    As stated, that is simply incorrect. If you would like, I can elaborate and you might learn something. In the interim, ponder if you really can grasp medical ethics from an introductory powerpoint-which almost certainly (and apparently) did not touch on the actual issues.
    This I gotta hear

    Do go on.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Pregnant Women Warned: Consent to Surgical Birth or Else

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    This I gotta hear

    Do go on.
    Certainly.

    Those of certain legal status can not refuse care. Those who dont have power of attorney. Those who are gravely disabled. Those who are a danger to themselves or others. Those who represent a public health threat.

    Do you think a hallucinating addict can refuse care? How about a person with ebola? What about a pregnant psych patient with HIV and every other STD refusing care for her pregnancy and comorbidities?

    Beyond that, those who do not meet the above criteria but wish for unsafe care can request whatever they want-those who provide care have no legal responsibility comply, though there is a legal responsibility to refer to another practitioner (who has the same ability).

    You need to remember that while practitioners have a desire to provide quality care and keep their patients satisfied-those patients are generally NOT familiar with medicine or the scientific process-and therefore there is a responsibility to help guide their decisions. People dont go to a mechanic, TELL them whats wrong, and then dictate what needs to be done-they CAN, but they might not like the result. The difference is here lives are at stake.

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    Re: Pregnant Women Warned: Consent to Surgical Birth or Else

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Certainly.

    Those of certain legal status can not refuse care. Those who dont have power of attorney. Those who are gravely disabled. Those who are a danger to themselves or others. Those who represent a public health threat.

    Do you think a hallucinating addict can refuse care? How about a person with ebola? What about a pregnant psych patient with HIV and every other STD refusing care for her pregnancy and comorbidities?
    As I suspected, you confuse people who are incapable of giving informed consent with those who refuse to give informed consent.

    The closest example you gave is the patient with ebola and other threats to public health, but while they can be quarantined (if they pose a threat to public health), they can also refuse treatment.

    Beyond that, those who do not meet the above criteria but wish for unsafe care can request whatever they want-those who provide care have no legal responsibility comply, though there is a legal responsibility to refer to another practitioner (who has the same ability).
    The courts *have* said that patients can't always force a doctor to perform a service (depends on the circumstances), but that's a different issue than a patient's right to refuse treatment (which they *always* have, even if they lack the ability to do so)
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Pregnant Women Warned: Consent to Surgical Birth or Else

    Quote Originally Posted by Summerwind View Post
    Right because doctors overrule insurers, NOT! Get a clue. Secondly exactly what you finish with is exactly what I stated, people do not need the extended stays at hospitals that they WANT, hence insurers have dropped it dramatically for nearly every procedure.

    You have a strange way of agreeing with my point.
    Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, but what we know for sure is the experience of a single patient says little to nothing about how long a stay the typical patient needs in the hospital. And I'm sure the doctors on here will tell you that they can and do request and get additional days in the hospital for their patients, depending on how they did, what kind of support those patients might or might NOT have at home, their overall health before they were admitted, and more!

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    Re: Pregnant Women Warned: Consent to Surgical Birth or Else

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    As I suspected, you confuse people who are incapable of giving informed consent with those who refuse to give informed consent.

    The closest example you gave is the patient with ebola and other threats to public health, but while they can be quarantined (if they pose a threat to public health), they can also refuse treatment.



    The courts *have* said that patients can't always force a doctor to perform a service (depends on the circumstances), but that's a different issue than a patient's right to refuse treatment (which they *always* have, even if they lack the ability to do so)
    How does a person in medical quarantine fit the description of incapable of informed consent? Can they refuse care? After you fail to answer that, tapdance around how the statement
    "A patient ALWAYS has the right to refuse care"
    is factually incorrect.

    A right that is powerless is not a right-I have just given examples of how ones rights can be refused. And an absolute statement has clearly been disproven. And by the way, a doctor can not be forced to provide care.

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    Re: Pregnant Women Warned: Consent to Surgical Birth or Else

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, but what we know for sure is the experience of a single patient says little to nothing about how long a stay the typical patient needs in the hospital. And I'm sure the doctors on here will tell you that they can and do request and get additional days in the hospital for their patients, depending on how they did, what kind of support those patients might or might NOT have at home, their overall health before they were admitted, and more!
    Insurance seeks to reduce costs-so a patient discharged early (with medical necessity to actually stay) ends up costing much more-never mind the problems with patient and provider satisfaction that DO come back to insurance companies.

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    Re: Pregnant Women Warned: Consent to Surgical Birth or Else

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    How does a person in medical quarantine fit the description of incapable of informed consent?
    They don't. Containment is a different issue than the refusal to grant informed consent

    Can they refuse care? After you fail to answer that, tapdance around how the statement is factually incorrect.
    I already said that they can refuse care.

    A right that is powerless is not a right-I have just given examples of how ones rights can be refused. And an absolute statement has clearly been disproven. And by the way, a doctor can not be forced to provide care.
    The right isn't powerless. It's protected by the law.

    And you didn't give any example of people who refused to consent and whose right to refuse was ignored. You gave examples of people who were incapable of exercising their right to refuse to consent.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Pregnant Women Warned: Consent to Surgical Birth or Else

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    They don't. Containment is a different issue than the refusal to grant informed consent



    I already said that they can refuse care.



    The right isn't powerless. It's protected by the law.

    And you didn't give any example of people who refused to consent and whose right to refuse was ignored. You gave examples of people who were incapable of exercising their right to refuse to consent.
    You are a time burglar so our conversation ends here.

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    Re: Pregnant Women Warned: Consent to Surgical Birth or Else

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    You are a time burglar so our conversation ends here.
    I accept your surrender!
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Pregnant Women Warned: Consent to Surgical Birth or Else

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post

    I was born in one back in 1988


    "I'm not young enough to know everything"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    You have no empirical evidence backing up your false assertion. You are simply conjecturing based on a whim...
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye10 View Post
    Or maybe "We now understand why women provoke men into hitting them".
    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    . Losing insurance does not mean losing healthcare. .

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