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Thread: Satanists Cite Hobby Lobby In Campaign For Religious Exemption To Abortion Laws

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    Re: Satanists Cite Hobby Lobby In Campaign For Religious Exemption To Abortion Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The courts would have a real hard time with that. There are a number of ways the courts could rule against the Satanists in this, most simply in that the state does have a legitimate interest in regulating abortion and that the laws in place are the least obtrusive ways to achieve that interest, but arguing that the Satanists are insincere about something that fits in exactly with their belief system is probably not one of those ways.
    The Hobby Lobby decision discusses the sincerity requirement and past decisions that established it. What law, specifically, are you drawing your "legitimate interest" and "least obtrusive" standards from?

    The second sounds like the "least restrictive means" standard set by the RFRA--the one the HHS rule at issue in Hobby Lobby failed to meet. The first sounds like the language of rational basis review--but courts do not apply the rational basis test in abortion cases.

    In Casey in 1992, the Court established a new, sort of squishy standard, under which laws restricting abortion before the fetus was viable were constitutional as long as they did not impose an "undue burden" on the mother's right to terminate her pregnancy. This relaxed (a lot) the "strict scrutiny" standard the Court had applied in Roe v. Wade, when it declared abortion to be a fundamental right.

    But Casey did not go so far as to apply the very relaxed "rational basis" standard in determining whether abortion laws are constitutional. The Court is no longer willing to claim abortion is a fundamental constitutional right, and under the "undue burden" standard state laws can restrict it pretty sharply without violating the Constitution. The laws requiring women to be given certain information before they receive abortions, which seem to have the Satanists' panties in a bunch, are an example of this.

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    Re: Satanists Cite Hobby Lobby In Campaign For Religious Exemption To Abortion Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Body freedom is a Satanist tradition. Your understanding of their lawsuit is also flawed.
    If you want a real riot-a-minute, check out the news on their website.

    They held a Satanic same-sex marriage ceremony at the gravesite of Fred Plelps' mother about a year ago.

    You can't make this garbage up!
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    Re: Satanists Cite Hobby Lobby In Campaign For Religious Exemption To Abortion Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    The bold outlines the crux of the suit. Basically the satanic church sees it as an affront when court decisions are made by scientifically unfounded views, which happened by the SCOTUS decision. So their argument is if religion is so sacred that it can be held to a higher standard than actual reality (science), then they seek a ruling as their church believes that science is the supreme font of knowledge.

    Its an interesting twist on the SCOTUS decision and I am of two minds. While I would love for there to be fewer regulations that are only there to get around Roe versus Wade, which causes harm to women. I also think the SCOTUS ruling is dangerous at its core for our society and really, we shouldn't be using it to even further positive interests.

    On the other hand, between this and the Baphomet statue in Oklahoma, these guys are superb trolls and they are just plain fun to watch people use pro-religious laws for their full extent, hopefully to educate those people who can't understand the first amendment. Its amusing, but still, its sad that the recent SCOTUS decision is creating these kinds of situations and it would have been better if they had ruled another way.
    Where's the law that says law has to be scientifically sound?
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    Re: Satanists Cite Hobby Lobby In Campaign For Religious Exemption To Abortion Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    The Hobby Lobby decision discusses the sincerity requirement and past decisions that established it. What law, specifically, are you drawing your "legitimate interest" and "least obtrusive" standards from?

    The second sounds like the "least restrictive means" standard set by the RFRA--the one the HHS rule at issue in Hobby Lobby failed to meet. The first sounds like the language of rational basis review--but courts do not apply the rational basis test in abortion cases.

    In Casey in 1992, the Court established a new, sort of squishy standard, under which laws restricting abortion before the fetus was viable were constitutional as long as they did not impose an "undue burden" on the mother's right to terminate her pregnancy. This relaxed (a lot) the "strict scrutiny" standard the Court had applied in Roe v. Wade, when it declared abortion to be a fundamental right.

    But Casey did not go so far as to apply the very relaxed "rational basis" standard in determining whether abortion laws are constitutional. The Court is no longer willing to claim abortion is a fundamental constitutional right, and under the "undue burden" standard state laws can restrict it pretty sharply without violating the Constitution. The laws requiring women to be given certain information before they receive abortions, which seem to have the Satanists' panties in a bunch, are an example of this.

    The Hobby Lobby ruling is where I took that from. The reason a level of scrutiny applies(though it is probably not rational basis review) is that religion is at issue. Again, see the Hobby Lobby ruling. Sincerity is not an issue since at issue is a core belief of the religion: TENETS |. As long as it is a religion, you can't get much more sincere than that.
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    Re: Satanists Cite Hobby Lobby In Campaign For Religious Exemption To Abortion Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Where's the law that says law has to be scientifically sound?
    Nowhere but that has nothing to do with the basis if the suit. It's tenets of the religion that refer to science, not the law

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    Re: Satanists Cite Hobby Lobby In Campaign For Religious Exemption To Abortion Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The Hobby Lobby ruling is where I took that from. The reason a level of scrutiny applies(though it is probably not rational basis review) is that religion is at issue. Again, see the Hobby Lobby ruling. Sincerity is not an issue since at issue is a core belief of the religion: TENETS |. As long as it is a religion, you can't get much more sincere than that.
    You might want to read the decision a little more closely. The Court certainly did not use rational basis review in Hobby Lobby--or apply any other level of scrutiny--for the simple reason that it declined to decide the case on constitutional grounds. Hobby Lobby is not a First Amendment Free Exercise Clause decision, but a decision interpreting a federal law that is, if anything, even more demanding.

    The Court held that the HHS rule requiring the contraceptive coverage violated the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993. (Incidentally, the unattributed quote in the original post incorrectly states that the ACA itself imposed this requirement. It does not, as the Court discussed in Hobby Lobby.) Congress enacted the RFRA in reaction to Employment Division v. Smith, a 1990 decision in which the Court raised a lot of eyebrows by drastically narrowing its interpretation of the Free Exercise Clause.

    The RFRA was meant to restore the broadly protective interpretation of the right to free exercise the Court had developed in several decisions before Smith. It did that with a vengeance, specifying that when government acts in a way that substantially restricts a person's right to free exercise of religion, it has to show not only that its action furthers a compelling government interest, but also that it is the least restrictive means of doing that.

    The HHS rule flunked this test, the Court held, because HHS already had a less restrictive means of providing contraceptive coverage, in the form of an accommodation another HHS rule provides for religious nonprofits.

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    Re: Satanists Cite Hobby Lobby In Campaign For Religious Exemption To Abortion Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    For abortion? I'm not sure that has been done before, the point isn't to find the answer though, it's to get as close to it as possible, you can't survey every single person in the world (the U.S is pretty damn big too, it's impossible to survey every single American).

    Also yes you can gloss over the defines, get Oxford English Dictionary, that is literally the most definitive dictionary there is for the English language, what it says goes.

    Also, you're naive, you don't really need to define moral at all, only ethics. This survey is geared towards the society as a whole not an individual.

    That's my idea Great job discovering my idea which I had made so very clear to everyone!
    What, exactly, would your survey do that others haven't done before?

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    Re: Satanists Cite Hobby Lobby In Campaign For Religious Exemption To Abortion Laws

    This is the crux of it. The same tests used in the Hobby Lobby case would be used in a case like if it went to federal courts - which I doubt it ever would. My guess is that its thrown out of any lower court if it even gets to a court.

    A) The Satanists would need to show if this was a sincerely held belief and would have to accurately define their belief. It seems to be that they're saying they object to scientific studies in the material mandated. So, is their sincerely held belief that they should not be expose to science they disagree with? Good luck with that. If people don't "believe" in GW science should they be forced to follow regulations or pay taxes that address it? You betcha.

    B) If somehow they managed to clear the hurdle stated above, then they would need to show that the way to communicate what was in the mandated material way was not the least restrictive way to provide the material. Here we get into some stickiness because of the word "restrictive". What religious freedom is specifically being "restricted" by being presented with a pamphlet or whatever abortion candidates are given?

    Also proscribed in the law is that the restriction of the religious freedom must be "substantial". Plus, as noted by the courts in other cases their is no right to not be offended. As in the case of offensive media, the court would say don't read it or don't watch it.



    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    To hell with these Satanists--let them go back to polishing the Devil's tail. According to the rule the Supreme Court reiterated in Hobby Lobby, a court could not inquire into whether their beliefs on this subject were plausible or reasonable. But the court could determine if these beliefs were sincere--whether they reflected an honest conviction. And the Satanists would have a devil of a time convincing an American court of that. God would never allow it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The courts would have a real hard time with that. There are a number of ways the courts could rule against the Satanists in this, most simply in that the state does have a legitimate interest in regulating abortion and that the laws in place are the least obtrusive ways to achieve that interest, but arguing that the Satanists are insincere about something that fits in exactly with their belief system is probably not one of those ways.

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    Re: Satanists Cite Hobby Lobby In Campaign For Religious Exemption To Abortion Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgasm View Post
    Still not as bad as Boehner's
    Far worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Satanists Cite Hobby Lobby In Campaign For Religious Exemption To Abortion Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by CycloneWanderer View Post
    What, exactly, would your survey do that others haven't done before?
    Have you seen a survey about the ethics behind abortion?

    It's not a matter of doing what none others have done before it's just a matter of doing what everybody has done before but with just another topic since said topic seems to be part of such a heated debate.

    That was the point I was making, and along with that, that said survey could possibly even lead to a solution and end to the debate (by leading to a possibility that most Americans may think abortion is moral/not moral which would then translate into society deeming abortion either ethical or unethical).
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