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80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched [W:700]

Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Even after injury due to a beating and elevated anxiety from being assaulted in their own home.

Yes. I tend to be unable to panic, or not prone to it. I was trapped 80' underwater under an object. Below was silt and my tank was hooked on the cover above me. I did not panic. I was in my home and a large number of teens broke in and pulled a gun. I did not panic, and I did not have to shoot anyone. Did I mention I was assaulted with a TV? I was cut and bruised, did not have to shoot anyone.

Sorry, I would not shoot someone in the back running away. I know this for a fact. Yours is nothing but impotent bluster.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

I kick in your door, grab your child when you look like you have a defensive weapon. I put a gun to her head. Tell you to start emptying your wallet, safe, and for kicks tell your pretty wife to undress. But in the mean time you see an opening, you have a weapon, a clear shot and the skills to take it.
Your kid drops to the ground like she should have been taught, and you what? Offer coffee and cookies? Or drop the scum wear he is standing.
Or do you say, "I don't want to be a murderer" so you tell momma to disrobe like he says and clean our your safe and lay it at his feet like a good little victim.
An honest question:
Do you think that the scenario above is essentially the same as the scenario Greer faced when he shot Miller in the alley?

Afaict, the situation above would be a legitimate case for the use of deadly force. So the homicide would not be a murder.
The differences, imho, seem to be painfully obvious.

Do the two scenarios, (Greer's and your fantasy above), honestly seem to be about the same to you?
No foolin'?
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing his assailant

No he didn't. If you think he did, you do not understand English that well.

And what is flabbergastedly wrong about your position is believing that
“I shot her, so that’s going to leave a message on his mind for the rest of his life.”
is somehow akin to:
I shot her to leave a message on his mind for the rest of his life.
or
I shot her so as to leave a message on his mind for the rest of his life.

Watch the damn video and stop being dishonest about what he says.


Yep. You stand by a failed position and untruths. That is to be expected.

Blah, blah and blah. He said what he said and showed no regret. He said what he said and he did not shoot anyone at that point in self defence. He was angry and wanted revenge and to send a message, period. They were out of his home running away.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

I have and did. You seem to think everyone is just a jumble of base instincts. We aren't. We have a brain that can reason. It is what separates us from the animals.
The fight or flight theory is valid. There is a reason why cops often shoot 16 rounds...because their magazines dont hold 17. And I'm sorry...you are just painting yourself as ridiculous if you think you would be calm, reasonable, and rational if you were an 80 year old getting jumped in your own home by multiple assailants.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing his assailant

It was what it was. I would react no differently. Why do you assume someones age makes them radically different? In the end I would still not shoot an unarmed woman in the back. She was running away, no reason to at that point.
I tend to agree. I just understand others would behave differently. Trained law enforcement have behaved similarly. Its not UNREASONABLE to expect that some people in that set of circumstances might act 'unreasonably'.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

The fight or flight theory is valid. There is a reason why cops often shoot 16 rounds...because their magazines dont hold 17. And I'm sorry...you are just painting yourself as ridiculous if you think you would be calm, reasonable, and rational if you were an 80 year old getting jumped in your own home by multiple assailants.

Again you are assuming #1 your feelings are how everyone else feels, and #2 assuming everyone responds the same under pressure. That is ignorance at it's finest. I have seen craven cowards and heroes because we all react differently under pressure. His actions were under stress or not, were illegal. The law does not recognize fight or flight as a valid defence.

Cops often shoot 16 rounds? What was the situation? Did they bring down whatever they were shooting at? Do you have any proof of this?

PS I am not calling you ignorant as an insult, I mean ignorant as in unknowledgeable.
 
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Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing his assailant

I tend to agree. I just understand others would behave differently. Trained law enforcement have behaved similarly. Its not UNREASONABLE to expect that some people in that set of circumstances might act 'unreasonably'.

I agree. My only argument is the reaction is not justifiable no matter who did it.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing his assailant

Blah, blah and blah. He said what he said and showed no regret.
OMG! The attacks of the blah, blah and blah! :lamo

Yes he said what he said, which was not anything about him sending a message.
That was nothing but unlearned interpretation of his comment. He clearly did not say he did it to send any message.
Nor does he have to show any regret. That is nothing but another absurd comment.


He said what he said and he did not shoot anyone at that point in self defence.
Yes he did say what he said. So what?
Nor did I claim he shot in self defense, did I?


He was angry and wanted revenge and to send a message, period.
More dishonest bs from you. Figures.
He was caught up in the moment. That is all.
It was not to send a message, nor an act of revenge. Saying so is just dishonesty. Period.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Did Tennessee change its law?
Idk, but the case you cite is the case which ruled that particular law to be unconstitutional.
The point being,there is precedence where law enforcement officers have shot fleeing unarmed suspects.
TNvG provides a two part test for when it is okay to shoot a fleeing suspect.
The suspect must present and "immediate" danger sufficient to warrant seizing that person's life.
Shooting the suspect must be the only available method for seizing the suspect.
Greer shooting Miller failed on both counts.
Greer's case fails most egregiously in the second case in that Greer was not trying to apprehend Miller at all.
He was trying to kill her not capture her.

So in addition to Greer not being a cop, neither he nor the community at large was in immediate danger from Miller, nor was Greer attempting to arrest Miller at all.

TNvG has zero bearing on Greer's case.

Its unreasonable to presume civilians should be held to higher standards. Particularly not civilians that have just gotten jumped in their own homes and have had body parts literally broken.
Even though Greer's situation would fail the TNvG test were Greer a cop, I'd like to point out a couple of things.

We give police leeway in these matter which we don't give to civilians.
If a cop arrests you and it's a mistake the cop is protected even if he has to use physical force to effect the arrest.
If a citizen tries the same crap--tries to arrest you and gets violent--the citizen is open to criminal charges as well as civil suits.
It is entirely reasonable for civilians to be held to a higher standard that cops.

Second, Greer is not being held to a higher standard than is indicated by TNvG.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

It is entirely reasonable for civilians to be held to a higher standard that cops.
It shouldn't be when using deadly force. It should be more relaxed for civilians as they are not trained as an Officer is.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing his assailant

More dishonest bs from you figures.
He was caught up in the moment. That is all.
It was not to send a message, nor an act of revenge. Saying so is just dishonesty. Period.

This shows the ridiculousness of your argument.

So now getting "caught up in the moment" is not getting revenge? So getting "caught up in the moment" was not to send a message? Come on then what was the motivation for getting "caught up in the moment" a desire to kill someone running away and shooting them in the back?
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

It shouldn't be when using deadly force. It should be more relaxed for civilians as they are not trained as an Officer is.

Absolute nonsense. People should not be shooting people in the back who are running away.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing his assailant

This shows the ridiculousness of your argument.

So now getting "caught up in the moment" is not getting revenge? So getting "caught up in the moment" was not to send a message? Come on then what was the motivation for getting "caught up in the moment" a desire to kill someone running away and shooting them in the back?

No, it shows the ridiculousness of your argument.
He was not sending any message. That exists solely in your mind.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Absolute nonsense. People should not be shooting people in the back who are running away.

What is absolute nonsense, is you replying while not understanding what is being spoken to.
Do try to keep up.
And at least bother to note what my position is regarding the shooting.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

It shouldn't be when using deadly force. It should be more relaxed for civilians as they are not trained as an Officer is.
Civilians should have the same immunity from prosecution as cops?
Civilians should be able to forcibly detain one another and not be held liable for the use of violence if the other civilian resists?

On its face, that does not sound workable. But perhaps I am missing something which would make that make sense.

In any case, current conditions are that police have special protections which go along with their job--part of which is catching criminals.
Greer was not trying to apprehend Miller, btw. He was trying to kill her.
So even if Greer had been a cop, Greer still would be a murderer.

This whole TNvGarner business is a red herring.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing his assailant

No, it shows the ridiculousness of your argument.
He was not sending any message. That exist solely in your mind.

And yet you have no valid response as to the motivation? Occams razor.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

What is absolute nonsense, is you replying while not understanding what is being spoken to.
Do try to keep up.
And at least bother to note what my position is regarding the shooting.
The old man is a murderer and there is no changing his mind on that. Age and mental condition at the time means nothing to him. He must have been on great cop.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Right...I get it. You like to judge others without perspective. God Bless America...or wherever you are from.

Riiiiight, sell that to someone who buys it. You judge Obama and others all the time. Yes, God Bless America, now don't hit your head getting off your soapbox.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

What is absolute nonsense, is you replying while not understanding what is being spoken to.
Do try to keep up.
And at least bother to note what my position is regarding the shooting.

I understood what you said... Nice dodge tough. Fact: you think civilians should be held to less of a standard than police.

That is what I responded to and I say again... absolute nonsense.

Now prove it is viable and not nonsense.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Civilians should have the same immunity from prosecution as cops?
Civilians should be able to forcibly detain one another and not be held liable for the use of violence if the other civilian resists?

On its face, that does not sound workable. But perhaps I am missing something which would make that make sense.

In any case, current conditions are that police have special protections which go along with their job--part of which is catching criminals.
Greer was not trying to apprehend Miller, btw. He was trying to kill her.
So even if Greer had been a cop, Greer still would be a murderer.

This whole TNvGarner business is a red herring.
What did you not understand about the following?
"as they are not trained as an Officer is."
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

The old man is a murderer and there is no changing his mind on that. Age and mental condition at the time means nothing to him. He must have been on great cop.
Is there a special set of laws for octogenarians?

"mental condition"?
Are you arguing that Greer was mentally deficient, unable to distinguish between right and wrong?
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Idk, but the case you cite is the case which ruled that particular law to be unconstitutional.
TNvG provides a two part test for when it is okay to shoot a fleeing suspect.
The suspect must present and "immediate" danger sufficient to warrant seizing that person's life.
Shooting the suspect must be the only available method for seizing the suspect.
Greer shooting Miller failed on both counts.
Greer's case fails most egregiously in the second case in that Greer was not trying to apprehend Miller at all.
He was trying to kill her not capture her.

So in addition to Greer not being a cop, neither he nor the community at large was in immediate danger from Miller, nor was Greer attempting to arrest Miller at all.

TNvG has zero bearing on Greer's case.


Even though Greer's situation would fail the TNvG test were Greer a cop, I'd like to point out a couple of things.

We give police leeway in these matter which we don't give to civilians.
If a cop arrests you and it's a mistake the cop is protected even if he has to use physical force to effect the arrest.
If a citizen tries the same crap--tries to arrest you and gets violent--the citizen is open to criminal charges as well as civil suits.
It is entirely reasonable for civilians to be held to a higher standard that cops.

Second, Greer is not being held to a higher standard than is indicated by TNvG.
Dont you think thats a bit bassackwards giving cops leeway you wouldnt give a civilian? And the Tennessee case is merely one case where law enforcement personnel have shot fleeing unarmed suspects. Pittsburgh, Albuquerque...lots of others. Relevant point still in play. Cops are intervening. They typically arent the 80 year old victim getting his ass beat down.

Similar recent case in Chicago involving an 86 year old shooting at a fleeing (armed) suspect. He wont be charged as it is determined he was "an 86-year-old law-abiding individual who comes across a forcible felony in progress … and helped others avoid being victims." Same goes with this 80 year old shooter.
86-year-old won't be charged in concealed carry shooting, prosecutors say - Chicago Tribune
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

What did you not understand about the following?
"as they are not trained as an Officer is."
Why you think that changes anything about how the world is.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

The old man is a murderer and there is no changing his mind on that. Age and mental condition at the time means nothing to him. He must have been on great cop.

I was, thanks.

He is a murderer. He shot a woman in the back who was running away. You seem to feel theft and assault are enough to execute someone. Last time I looked they are not forcible felonies in any state in the union. You would probably be much happier living in Somalia or an Islamic state.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

I understood what you said... Nice dodge tough. Fact: you think civilians should be held to less of a standard than police.
Dodge?
You are confused.
You clearly did not understand what was being spoken to, which is why I told you such.


That is what I responded to and I say again... absolute nonsense.
And?
That was not what I addressed. So that is your failure.
So again. Why don't you at least try to learn what my position on this case is before you again open your moth and insert your foot.


Now prove it is viable and not nonsense.
I do not have to disprove your claim, especially as you did not understand what was being spoken to. That is on you.
 
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